tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post5299042920980404604..comments2024-03-28T10:18:00.370-05:00Comments on Gentlemen of Leisure: X-amining X-Men (vol. 2) #3Austin Gortonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14281239771248780430noreply@blogger.comBlogger37125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-67145459609456200302021-12-03T11:46:43.228-06:002021-12-03T11:46:43.228-06:00Return in "Fatal attractions" incongruen...Return in "Fatal attractions" incongruent. 🤔🤔🤔<br />Mr Sinister, Stryfe, the Acolytes, The Upstarts, The Reavers, Fenris, Omega Red, Phalanx... "Back to Magneto".🤦🤦🤦Fra Xhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14535964947337788975noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-51599732202415764832021-12-03T11:27:29.198-06:002021-12-03T11:27:29.198-06:00The last great story of Magneto. XD
"Fatal a...The last great story of Magneto. XD <br />"Fatal attractions" remake of "Rubicon" by Harras'. XD<br />Magneto 93 - 2004... caos, retcon...😳😳🤔Fra Xhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14535964947337788975noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-37961731601242097112016-06-06T11:31:30.475-05:002016-06-06T11:31:30.475-05:00These recent entries inspired me to pick up the Mu...These recent entries inspired me to pick up the Mutant Genesis 2.0 TPB this weekend. It was enjoyable and nostalgic to go back and revisit this story. Even still, there's little/no mention that it signified the end of CC's run, and goes on to include the next 4 issues of the series. I don't mind the chance to revisit those, too, and the new coloring is nice, but it almost seems perverse in how little Claremont is acknowledged. There's no blurb, or intro, waxing on about how great/important Claremont was to the franchise, and what this story means for his legacy. One would almost think that a TPB of just issues 1-3 would make sense, but it's like Marvel goes out of its way to downplay any significance of Claremont leaving. Part of me understands that--they don't want to imply the franchise would be doomed, or even that they'd lost a valuable asset--but you see praise for other creators/artists when TPB's are released like that.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11428939457863204851noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-50544940083579920092016-06-05T13:59:43.205-05:002016-06-05T13:59:43.205-05:00@Austin
I've heard that Claremont's origin...@Austin<br />I've heard that Claremont's original intentions for the New Mutants was to eventually have them become THE X-men someday. Around that time we had Cyclops married and soon to have a kid, Storm was without her powers and doing some soul-searching, and the original team were all either on other teams or retired and living their own lives. So Claremont was allowing these characters to grow up and do their own thing, and had things flowed organically we might be seeing an X-Men team today consisting of nothing but former New Mutants with maybe some older X-Men like Storm or Beast aboard as mentors.<br /><br />But of course as time goes on the floating timestream comes in place to keep characters young and to also keep a certain status quo. The X-Men were way too popular and couldn't be replaced. So instead of graduating in 7 issues like the original team, the NM and Gen X have had to remain perpetual students for almost 200 combined issues.<br /><br />Side note: It's odd that Cannonball "graduated" from X-Force. I was always under the impression that X-Force was entirely separate from Xavier's school. Even when X-Force lived in the mansion it's not like they were suddenly the junior team again.Ian Millerhttp://ianjmiller.deviantart.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-34634390458741302932016-06-05T13:51:32.625-05:002016-06-05T13:51:32.625-05:00I remember reading about a lot of these hypothetic...I remember reading about a lot of these hypothetical plots on a blog a few years ago. Wolverine would come back but as something like a zombie. His healing factor would also be in overdrive and would start pushing his adamantium out of his body and it would start covering his skin, making him look like the Silver Surfer. <br /><br />So if the plan was for Magneto to be involved in issue #300 then it sounds like he was meant to stay alive. I'm guessing that since this is Claremont's swan song that he wanted to end on a major note, i.e. killing off their greatest villain.Ian Millerhttp://ianjmiller.deviantart.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-48938336067043662162016-06-04T21:07:04.542-05:002016-06-04T21:07:04.542-05:00It's funny when you talk of "two years cy...It's funny when you talk of "two years cycle", because I understand the emergence of the Silver Age "teenage superhero" akin to Spider-Man or Johnny Storm has been seen as a successful grab for the teenage audience in a situation where the status quo for comic book scene was that the effective comics reading age was the two years from ten to twelve and on that note some publishers would just keep printing the same stories in two years' cycle in their generic title books for the ever-renewing audience.<br /><br />Also, the "dealers" grumbling on Claremont's work just gives me a mental image of a particular Simpsons character. Happy now, Comic Book Guy, happy now?! ...It just pains me to realize that the early Radioactive Man episode was <i>contemporary</i> commentary of the comic boom. Talk about "just few years" passing...Teemunoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-41178839745705784452016-06-04T20:46:54.038-05:002016-06-04T20:46:54.038-05:00That would be pretty much in align with what Weezi...That would be pretty much in align with what Weezie has said of her departure from X-FACTOR: Harras had this roundabout way to tell you you are not wanted anymore.Teemunoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-54269717741573417192016-06-04T15:36:24.323-05:002016-06-04T15:36:24.323-05:00The New Mutants had graduation outfits, but they w...The New Mutants had graduation outfits, but they were self-appointed ones. I don't think they ever "officially" graduated from whatever formal curriculum Xavier had in place. <br /><br />In the mid-90s Cannonball "graduated" from X-Force to the X-Men, but that's about all else I can think of offhand. Certainly, through the years, we've seen former young students grow up and become X-Men (the New Mutants eventually became teachers to the New X-Men and then were formed into their own X-Men squad, a handful of the Gen Xers, notably Husk, became X-Men in their own right), but I don't think we've ever seen any kind of formal graduation beyond that very first one. <br /><br />@CR: <i>Considering Harras started the Blue and Gold era without any students...I'm not fully buying his explanation.</i><br /><br />That's one of those things that's always bugged me. As much as Harras wanted to get back to basics, this group of X-Men are neither students nor teachers. Yes, they're back in the "school", and yes, Xavier is around, but it's not like we ever see them taking classes or training all that much. <br /><br />Which makes sense, because they're all adults with established superhero careers at this point, but Harras shouldn't really be dinging Claremont for not doing that when it doesn't happen even after Claremont leaves. And I agree with Harras that the X-Men need some kind of student/teacher element, but that's what a franchise is for - it simply doesn't work, after all this time, to have the X-Men themselves as students anymore. And it really hasn't since the Silver Age. Plus, with the transformation of the New Mutants into X-Force, ironically this era (at least until Generation X comes along) is the *least* school-based we've seen since before the New Mutants were introduced. Austin Gortonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14281239771248780430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-35408631399840298392016-06-04T15:28:39.342-05:002016-06-04T15:28:39.342-05:00Huh. Nice catch. I do wonder now if Claremont used...Huh. Nice catch. I do wonder now if Claremont used that phrasing intentionally. Austin Gortonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14281239771248780430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-10311346691020278472016-06-04T15:28:01.973-05:002016-06-04T15:28:01.973-05:00From a business standpoint, I can't blame Harr...From a business standpoint, I can't blame Harras. My biggest problem with Claremont's departure is just the way it was handled. It deserved more pomp & circumstance, Claremont deserved more respect. It seems like Harras was afraid to address it head-on, and so was very passive-aggressive about it, and that's just poor leadership. Austin Gortonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14281239771248780430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-45695056967959715682016-06-04T14:38:47.146-05:002016-06-04T14:38:47.146-05:00Has anyone ever determined what Claremont made for...<i>Has anyone ever determined what Claremont made for X-MEN 1 - 3?</i><br /><br />I've never seen an exact figure, but have come across the "it paid for my house" comment a few times, so we're probably talking in the hundreds of thousands, at least. And given how often that chunk of issues gets reprinted, I bet he's still consistently making money off it. <br /><br /><i>so even if you were only reading the core X-MEN and UNCANNY, two years between X-MEN 3 and X-MEN 25 comes out to about 44 combined issues of both series -- the equivalent of nearly four years' worth of comics if they were just one monthly title instead.</i><br /><br />I've never really considered that, but you're right. It's really not just two years' worth of comics; with two titles, it's like four years worth. <br /><br />And the relativity of time regarding age is just crazy. I get it - when you're 15, one year is a 1/15 of your life; when you're thirty, it's 1/30 of your life, a much smaller fraction, so one year seems to go by faster - but it's still crazy. I can still remember reading the first issue of CIVIL WAR on a friend's couch (at an apartment he had three homes ago), and thinking "yeah, that was just a few years ago" but no, it was more like ten, and that's crazy. <br /><br /><i>But I'm well aware I'm in the minority (both due to ongoing sales back then and due to the reverence in which the latter part of the run is held now), so I'll shut up!</i><br /><br />Well, there were reportedly rumblings from dealers at the time about Claremont needing to get more back to basics too, so it's entirely possible that if he'd stayed and done his thing, sales would have been affected (which is what Harras was trying to stave off). Then again, maybe the fervor over the Image guys would have balanced it all out - god knows there's plenty of badly written but nice looking stories to come. <br /><br />And outside of little pockets on the internet (like me and Jason Powell), I've always gotten the impression that the later part of his run is the stuff most widely mocked online (and even I don't cite that stuff as my personal favorite, with the "non-team" stuff my least favorite overall). <br /><br />My point being I think you're less in the minority than you think. :) <br /><br />@CR: <i>Going back to the same stories again and again has hurt the franchise, especially in the Trade Paper Back era when everyone can just read the original stories and see they're having trouble finding a new direction for the franchise.</i><br /><br />You know, that comment got me thinking, in terms of Matt's "two year cycle", how that sort of thing was much more necessary in the pre-trade days, where it wasn't as easy to read classic stories. Whereas nowadays, that stuff is more readily available, so the need to re-tread familiar ground is maybe less pressing. Which may be why we've seen more sustained "off model" status quos over the last 15 years. I mean, it's been at least ten since we had a unified team of X-Men operating out of a mansion under the direction of Professor X. Jean Grey's been dead longer the second time than the first. Even Wolverine's death has stuck longer than anyone expected to (helped, of course, by the technicality that is Old Man Logan being brought into the present timeline by SECRET WARS). <br /><br />It's been just as long since the Avengers were operating out of a mansion, the FF aren't even around anymore, and Spider-Man's had a couple of protracted "non-normal" status quos in the last decade and a half. It makes me wonder if creators (and the powers-that-be) are more comfortable stretching those things out now, since the original, classic stories are just a trade (or click) away. <br /><br />All of which is just further proof that Claremont is ahead of his time. :) <br /><br />Austin Gortonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14281239771248780430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-51286205158264384842016-06-04T14:00:06.389-05:002016-06-04T14:00:06.389-05:00Heh. Yeah. And he's soon gone from the series,...Heh. Yeah. And he's soon gone from the series, not to return until the Generation X run-up, for reasons that have nothing to do with his powers, so it seems someone is just rubbing salt in the wounds. Austin Gortonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14281239771248780430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-34433215817676900402016-06-04T13:59:19.137-05:002016-06-04T13:59:19.137-05:00There's been a fair amount of stuff written on...There's been a fair amount of stuff written online about Claremont's plans had he stayed, some of which made it into X-MEN FOREVER (but not very much, much to my dismay). The big plot involved Wolverine apparently dying and being resurrected as a Hand assassin (with Psylocke's transformation to the same serving as a test run for the process), along with the return of the Shadow King (in which the Muir Island Saga would have played out differently), culminating in a big Shadow King/Xavier/Magneto battle in issue #300 that would leave Xavier dead and Magneto in charge. <br /><br />It's hard to say how good "coulda been" stories actually would have turned (and there's simply no way Marvel would have allowed Wolverine to be off the board for that long, not at the height of the speculator bubble), but I do wish Claremont had been able to stay through issue #300. Just seems like a nice, round, jumping off point. Austin Gortonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14281239771248780430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-35218000563330333162016-06-04T13:55:58.445-05:002016-06-04T13:55:58.445-05:00Good point - this is a fairly unique situation, in...Good point - this is a fairly unique situation, in that few creators stick around on a book long enough to end up working with creators who grew up fans of their work. Austin Gortonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14281239771248780430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-51413235528452964612016-06-04T13:54:40.917-05:002016-06-04T13:54:40.917-05:00Yeah, as Sylar suggested, I've always read the...Yeah, as Sylar suggested, I've always read the brainwashing comment as being specific to Moira's process. It's not that all mutants are immune to all forms of brainwashing, just that Moira's specific process would fail quickly after a mutant starting using their power. <br /><br />And, I think the idea is that Magneto is dead anyway; leaving with the X-Men just means he'll die on their ship rather than in his home. But that probably could have been made more clear. Austin Gortonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14281239771248780430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-49022040582702790392016-06-03T01:27:33.018-05:002016-06-03T01:27:33.018-05:00Considering Harras started the Blue and Gold era w...Considering Harras started the Blue and Gold era without any students...I'm not fully buying his explanation. How long did it take before Generation X came out? And they were in a different school!<br /><br />CRAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-42224212389546574052016-06-03T01:24:17.723-05:002016-06-03T01:24:17.723-05:00But what's being ignored is that the thing the...But what's being ignored is that the thing the X-men were known for like fighting Magneto or battling the Sentinels never really sold the book. It's the Dark Phoenix saga and then Days of Future Past and finally a nuanced Magneto that made it so much more than recycled stories. It was breaking new ground that made X-men the juggernaut that it would become.<br /><br />I never want to read another alternate future again. Going back to the same stories again and again has hurt the franchise, especially in the Trade Paper Back era when everyone can just read the original stories and see they're having trouble finding a new direction for the franchise.<br /><br />CRAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-49439960331339340702016-06-03T01:15:25.156-05:002016-06-03T01:15:25.156-05:00I've always felt the Magneto we've seen fr...I've always felt the Magneto we've seen from Fatal Attractions onward was Xorn. The real Magneto never would have interrupted Illyana's (his former student!) funeral raving like a nut job.<br /><br />CRAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-45696653939906151882016-06-02T22:15:31.218-05:002016-06-02T22:15:31.218-05:00Right!? Considering the orgiastic fanfare DC gave ...Right!? Considering the orgiastic fanfare DC gave Geoff "my middle name is 'Mediocre'" Johns when he quit Green Lantern after eight-or-so years, Marvel should have given Claremont a goddamned ticker tape parade.Bobnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-27222744043601940252016-06-02T22:06:51.047-05:002016-06-02T22:06:51.047-05:00One more thought regarding this: "With X-Men,...One more thought regarding this: "With X-Men, there are some things you can't get away from for too long: the school dynamics; Xavier; the fact that they're essentially students learning how to use their powers; that sort of thing."<br /><br />A friend and I were having a discussion last night about how many students actually graduated from Xavier's. I know the original 5 graduated in Uncanny #7, but other than them I can't name any other true graduates. The All-New team were full-fledged X-Men learning on the job, and as far as I know the New Mutants became X-Force before they graduated (Although I recall their outfits after the training uniforms were called Graduation Uniforms). Any more info on this?Ian Millerhttp://ianjmiller.deviantart.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-2742729254181964742016-06-02T20:42:40.734-05:002016-06-02T20:42:40.734-05:00I don’t have much to say right now but will return...<br>I don’t have much to say right now but will return after reading Jason’s posts and the comments. <br /><br /><i>// Bob Harras: “It was getting so we were speaking the same language, but we couldn't understand each other.” //</i><br /><br />Rogue says to Xavier near the end of this issue, about him and Magneto, “Y’all may use the same words, but you don’t speak the same language.” So I can’t help wondering if that was a pet phrase of Harras’ that Claremont worked into the script, consciously or not, or if Harras using it later about Claremont's departure is just an amusing coincidence in that light.<br /><br>Blamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07342343767763035991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-62215285038777915772016-06-02T16:32:08.050-05:002016-06-02T16:32:08.050-05:00I agree that I never felt Claremont phoned it in, ...I agree that I never felt Claremont phoned it in, but the non-team era was a particular low point. As much as the series was rejuvenated by Lee's art, I also think the stories exemplified by this era were a pretty big contrast to the non-team stuff just before it. The comparison can't help but make this stuff exciting. Looking back, I can see why editorial would favor Lee's inclinations.<br /><br />I think Claremont could have continued making interesting stories, but his output, at least after Inferno, had been and would probably continue to be uneven. It would be interesting to see what he would have done AT THE TIME, and not the abysmal X-Men Forever stuff.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11428939457863204851noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-85337722708582990182016-06-02T16:21:13.765-05:002016-06-02T16:21:13.765-05:00I hear what you're saying, and can agree to a ...I hear what you're saying, and can agree to a point. When X-Men #1 hit the stands, and was basically hitting a lot of the same notes as the classic stuff (homage cover, Magneto as villain, students in school, Xavier as headmaster, etc.), it was exciting to me largely because it was the first time I saw those things outside of reprints. That said, I feel like "my" X-Men were the ones that existed basically between issues 200-300 (I'm rounding, it's not quite that long), where those old tropes had been done away with. To me, it was more that the Outback Era was solid, good stuff, but the Teamless Era was weak. Of course, the status quo has to be returned to eventually, but I think the idea that it should happen every year or two doesn't give enough credit to the stuff that happens between those cycles. So yeah, I can see Claremont as being wronged here, even as I can also see that maybe it was time for him to let Lee and others play with the toys and riff on those old themes again. At any rate, it's hard for me not to see X-Men #3 as being maybe the last issue of "My" team, though it would take several more issues and Lee's eventual departure before I dropped the franchise entirely.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11428939457863204851noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-5473836758412863612016-06-02T14:16:33.422-05:002016-06-02T14:16:33.422-05:00As bad as it was to lose Claremont in retrospect, ...As bad as it was to lose Claremont in retrospect, I totally sympathize with Bob Harras here. Jim Lee's artwork from this time period is so iconic that even 25 years later it is used on X-Men marketing materials and spinoff products. The stuff that Lee wants to draw - Magneto, Sentinels, Gambit, the Silver Age team together in the mansion, sexy Rogue - is the same stuff that's about to become a popular, critically acclaimed children's TV series, an arcade game, etc. He can't justify taking the hottest artist with the best franchise vision off the hottest title.<br /><br />On the other hand, the last time Claremont had anyone but Jim Lee on board, he went as weird as possible. The Siege Perilous, the issues starring Jean and Forge and Callisto, the Kid Ororo plot, the Cross-Time Caper - if I were editorial, I'd be worried that in a few years we would have another Cerebus on our hands, a book that was no longer intelligible for first-time readers.Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08363958269623346844noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-56518658736080487082016-06-02T13:32:26.861-05:002016-06-02T13:32:26.861-05:00While the end of his run isn't for me, I certa...While the end of his run isn't for me, I certainly don't believe Claremont ever phoned it in on UNCANNY X-MEN. Heck, he's said that he even paid Tom Orzechoswki and Glynis Oliver a little something extra out of his own pocket now and then to keep them on the book so it could look its absolute best at all times.<br /><br />Perhaps his heart wasn't in it near the end due to the struggles with Jim Lee and Bob Harras, but I believe he gave every issue his best effort in any case, whether or not they were issues I personally enjoyed.<br /><br />I do believe, however, there was some phoning in on EXCALIBUR. It's evident by the number of fill-ins on that run that he was never as dedicated to it as he had been to UNCANNY and NEW MUTANTS, and his final story arc feels half-hearted. I think he got off on a bad track with "Cross-Time Caper" and that, combined with Alan Davis's departure, led to some sub-par work.Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14580725636327122073noreply@blogger.com