tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post5055312196251635069..comments2024-03-28T10:18:00.370-05:00Comments on Gentlemen of Leisure: Game of Thrones 4x09: The Watchers on the WallAustin Gortonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14281239771248780430noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-33512099061917719802014-06-16T17:57:03.034-05:002014-06-16T17:57:03.034-05:00@Matt: I really need to go back and watch those e...@Matt: <i> I really need to go back and watch those early episodes again. My brother is doing so right now, and he says the show makes a lot more sense with the hindsight provided by subsequent seasons.</i><br /><br />It really does. I haven't done a comprehensive re-watch, but the weekend of the season 4 premiere HBO was running the entire series non-stop, and the wife and I just happened to be home for most of the weekend, so we'd just have the show on in the background while we were doing whatever, dipping in and out at various times. So I caught most of the series again, and it really does make a huge difference watching stuff with hindsight. <br /><br />@Dr. Bitz<i>What's odd about that is that it seems ill advised to use the army that made it to the south in a battle where you're just testing defenses.</i><br /><br />Indeed. And there's a certain part of me that wonders, why not send a larger force over the wall and split your army in half, with one side on each side of the wall. Or, for that matter, go through the gates of one of the countless unguarded castles along the wall. <br /><br />Austin Gortonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14281239771248780430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-64957779820221094672014-06-13T00:21:51.921-05:002014-06-13T00:21:51.921-05:00@Teebore: "But the episode made it clear this...@Teebore: "But the episode made it clear this was just a testing offensive, meant to probe the castle's defenses."<br /><br />Yeah, it seems that way. What's odd about that is that it seems ill advised to use the army that made it to the south in a battle where you're just testing defenses.<br /><br />"I was totally expecting him to get an ax in the head or something at that moment, because this is Game of Thrones, and rousing heroism usually ends in some kind of fatal head wound."<br /><br />Yeah, maybe him dying there would've been too obvious. I was surprised he (apparently) survived the battle, though.<br /><br />"I suppose we can chalk it up to giants not being smart/listening to orders, but once he had the gate up, why not hold it up to let more troops in?"<br /><br />And why didn't Grenn and company bring bow and arrows to shoot through the gate? It may or may not have helped but it certainly couldn't have hurt! And they don't even have lack of intelligence as an excuse.<br /><br />"I think I liked her a bit more than you, mainly just because she was a saucy redhead."<br /><br />I'm struggling to think of anything she has said that wasn't annoying.<br /><br />"Also, "Feasting on Jugulars" is my new band name."<br /><br />Fine by me. I obviously have dibs on "Giants Riding Mammoths."<br /><br />@Jeff: "There's an interview with Neil Marshall where he says the original plan was to have about a dozen giants"<br /><br />Maybe that's for the best? If they had dozens of giants I may have had to stop watching the show because I'd know it would be all downhill from there.<br /><br />"Tyrion uses a giant chain to keep Stannis' ships trapped in the bay while they are burning."<br /><br />That does sound cool. But I am curious how they got the chain in the water and such.<br /><br />@Blam: "I was kind-of disappointed that the opening credits weren't limited to the Wall"<br /><br />It would've been funny if they just stayed on the Wall for the entirety of the opening song.<br /><br />"I did not realize that the kid was named Olly. Which totally makes him the Green Arrow of Earth-Thrones."<br /><br />Crap! How did miss that?<br /><br />"My suspicion is that many folks who wanted to see those crazy kids Jon and Ygritte work it out somehow feel differently."<br /><br />You're probably right. But that doesn't mean they're right...<br /><br />"If there's one thing Jon Snow's good at, it's penetrating the enemy."<br /><br />Hey! No upstaging the blogger!<br /><br />@Matt: "Is this going to be another thing where he's wandering beyond the wall for like the whole of next season?"<br /><br />You don't think Game of Thrones would pad out a story with filler, do you?<br /><br />"So apparently there are like, recurring characters at Castle Black besides Jon, Sam, Pyp, Maester Aemon, and Alliser?"<br /><br />You remembered Pyp, that puts you one ahead of me! Yeah, the Night's Watch members that died in this episode certainly endeared themselves to me in this episode, but I took no notice of them prior to this episode.<br /><br />"He's simultaneously a terrible leader and a great leader at the same time."<br /><br />He's one of those characters where you may not like the decisions he makes but you at least know he's making them for the right reasons.<br /><br />"I cracked up at the cocky pose and nod from Olly after he killed Ygritte."<br /><br />It was typical Game of Thrones. A scene set up like a traditional "Hell yeah!" moment but a scene that doesn't actually play out that way at all.Dr. Bitzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13568570859981368717noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-58630240433268055812014-06-12T11:54:37.786-05:002014-06-12T11:54:37.786-05:00I also liked this episode better than the Blackwat...I also liked this episode better than the Blackwater one, mainly because the Blackwater ep had all those annoying Cersei scenes among the good stuff. This ep was pretty much all good stuff.<br /><br />Also, I agree with you guys regarding Jon not bringing Ghost and some other, less valuable sword on his mission. I'm curious how long he'll be gone for. Is this going to be another thing where he's wandering beyond the wall for like the whole of next season? I mean, the show is pretty much setting it up so he'll become the Knight Commander, right? (I have no idea if this is the case in the books; it's just the feeling I get from his arc on the show.) Can't they just hurry up and make that happen??<br /><br /><br />So apparently there are like, recurring characters at Castle Black besides Jon, Sam, Pyp, Maester Aemon, and Alliser? I was watching the little featurette they do after the episode, where the producers said they felt they needed some casualties in this fight, so they chose to kill Grenn, who has been around since the beginning. And who I have no recollection of prior to this episode. Is the beard new or something?<br /><br />Also, previously I really thought Alliser was a dick, but he redeemed himself a bit here. I was impressed that he chose to go straight to the front line and lead a charge after giving that rousing speech. He's simultaneously a terrible leader and a great leader at the same time.<br /><br />Lastly, despite the gravity of the situation, I cracked up at the cocky pose and nod from Olly after he killed Ygritte. It was really funny. (Also, I'm with Dr. Bitz in not caring much for Ygritte. I won't miss her.)<br /><br /><br />Blam & Teebore -- I do recall that a few years ago, Eamon told Jon he was a Targaryen. They had a little conversation while Aemon was getting ready to launch a raven for some reason. It's actually one of the few things from season one that stuck with me all this time. I really need to go back and watch those early episodes again. My brother is doing so right now, and he says the show makes a lot more sense with the hindsight provided by subsequent seasons.Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14580725636327122073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-44745934412569132602014-06-12T07:31:15.255-05:002014-06-12T07:31:15.255-05:00@Teebore: // I can't remember if I knew that f...<br>@Teebore: <i>// I can't remember if I knew that from the show //</i><br /><br />Over at Nikki's she mentioned that we found out when he told Jon Snow at the end of Season 1, but her husband had the same reaction I did. Per a Google search, Maester Aemon in the novels is actually not King Aerys' uncle but a really, really, <i>really</i> old dude who is an ancestor of the Aemon who is King Aerys' uncle, and he joined the Night's Watch so long ago that nobody remembers he's a Targaryen; the Aemons were conflated for the TV series. Unless I've misread, since I get very myopic looking for stuff I think I'm supposed to know on the Web so I don't spoil myself.<br /><br />I do get the sense that I'd be Braavosi if I lived in the World of Ice and Fire.<br /><br>Blamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07342343767763035991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-66914537809655528002014-06-11T17:38:12.093-05:002014-06-11T17:38:12.093-05:00@Jeff: There's an interview with Neil Marshall...@Jeff: <i>There's an interview with Neil Marshall where he says the original plan was to have about a dozen giants, but they just couldn't make it work budget-wise and time-wise. </i><br /><br />I saw a similar interview. He referred to the process of adding more giants and mammoths as "difficult", to which I thought, "gee whiz, I'm sorry if your job is hard", but I get his point. :) <br /><br /><i>In the book version of the Battle of Blackwater, Tyrion uses a giant chain to keep Stannis' ships trapped in the bay while they are burning.</i><br /><br />I JUST read that (I'm working my way through the books behind seasons of the show)! It was a cool technique, but I'm not surprised it was cut from the show. <br /><br />@Blam: <i>Did we know that Maester Aemon was Aemon Targaryen?</i><br /><br />I did, but I can't remember if I knew that from the show, or from reading (most of) the first two books. At any rate, he's essentially Dany's great uncle (his nephew was the Mad King, Dany's father, whom Jamie killed before the series started - my book-reading brother had to clarify that for me). I think from the perspective of Westerosian politics, there are no Targaryen's left, except for Dany, since becoming a member of the Night's Watch essentially strips you of all rank/title/claims/etc. <br /><br /><i>Are they escaping the white-walkers or there some prophesy/destiny thing at work or do they just escaping an even colder-than-usual north now that winter is coming?</i><br /><br />Notions 1 and 3, I believe, with a bit of "we're pissed off at being forced to live up here and not going to take it anymore!" tossed in. <br /><br /><i>If there's one thing Jon Snow's good at, it's penetrating the enemy.</i><br /><br />Oh man, that about killed me. Bravo! Austin Gortonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14281239771248780430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-80360467049972566322014-06-11T16:07:51.824-05:002014-06-11T16:07:51.824-05:00@Teebore: // but maybe bring a sword with you on y...<br>@Teebore: <i>// but maybe bring a sword with you on your mission to penetrate a massive enemy army //</i><br /><br />If there's one thing Jon Snow's good at, it's penetrating the enemy.<br /><br>Blamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07342343767763035991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-22614817805040998442014-06-11T16:06:58.983-05:002014-06-11T16:06:58.983-05:00I was kind-of disappointed that the opening credit...<br>I was kind-of disappointed that the opening credits weren't limited to the Wall, save for maybe just a quick fly-by over King's Landing and other points south for perspective. Given that there were so few names it was actually more jarring to have the standard opening visuals than an edited version. Kit Harrington probably won't be first name again unless/until the show offs Tyrion, Jaime, and Cersei, at minimum.<br /><br /><i>// He is interrupted by Maester Aemon //</i><br /><br />Did we know that Maester Aemon was Aemon Targaryen? I was under the impression that there were no other Targaryens left.<br /><br /><i>// young Olly puts an arrow through her back //</i><br /><br />I did not realize that the kid was named Olly. Which totally makes him the Green Arrow of Earth-<i>Thrones</i>.<br /><br /><i>// So this huge blade on a chain comes swinging down and cuts through all the climbers. It's pretty bad ass! //</i><br /><br />That it is. And the wildlings didn't necessarily have to climb in a line straight across for that massive scythe to get them.<br /><br /><i>// got a rather happy ending this episode //</i><br /><br />My suspicion is that many folks who wanted to see those crazy kids Jon and Ygritte work it out somehow feel differently.<br /><br /><i>// Who in Westeros don't I want to see overrun by Mance's army? //</i><br /><br />Good rhetorical question. One that also makes me realize I have no recollection of why the wildlings want to invade south of the Wall. Are they escaping the white-walkers or there some prophesy/destiny thing at work or do they just escaping an even colder-than-usual north now that winter is coming?<br /><br>Blamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07342343767763035991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-45104442712865010502014-06-11T13:14:04.914-05:002014-06-11T13:14:04.914-05:00This wasn't the huge army we'd heard about...<i>This wasn't the huge army we'd heard about, it was a few hundred guys. Two giants and a mammoth is cool; hundreds of giants and mammoths would be even cooler.</i><br /><br />There's an interview with Neil Marshall where he says the original plan was to have about a dozen giants, but they just couldn't make it work budget-wise and time-wise. <br /><br />In the book version of the Battle of Blackwater, Tyrion uses a giant chain to keep Stannis' ships trapped in the bay while they are burning. They had to cut that for budget reasons, so I liked that they decided to throw in a giant chain here to make up for it. You can't have a battle in Game of Thrones without a giant chain of some sort.Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14447265712189987074noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-44368565708076355562014-06-11T10:25:45.338-05:002014-06-11T10:25:45.338-05:00Also, "Feasting on Jugulars" is my new b...Also, "Feasting on Jugulars" is my new band name. Austin Gortonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14281239771248780430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-17384538600052380352014-06-11T10:24:55.714-05:002014-06-11T10:24:55.714-05:00Alliser says he's fine with his decision becau...<i>Alliser says he's fine with his decision because a true commander never second guesses themselves. </i><br /><br />I didn't take it that way - I saw it more as Alliser saying "yeah, you were right and I was wrong, but that's what happens when you're in command: everyone second guesses you. Have fun with that, and maybe you'll understand my position better someday". <br /><br />I did totally love that Alliser fessed up to Jon being right, which is probably the closest thing we've ever gotten on this show to comeuppance for a jerky character. <br /><br /><i>Personally, I was just waiting for a giant shark to rise up behind Ser Alliser and eat him.</i><br /><br />Heh. That would have been awesome. But seriously, I was totally expecting him to get an ax in the head or something at that moment, because this is <i>Game of Thrones</i>, and rousing heroism usually ends in some kind of fatal head wound. <br /><br /><i>He hulks up, lifts the gate himself and walks into the tunnels.</i><br /><br />I suppose we can chalk it up to giants not being smart/listening to orders, but once he had the gate up, why not hold it up to let more troops in? Or wedge something under it if it was too heavy to hold up? <br /><br /><i>Frankly, that's a fair sight better than I thought Sam might walk in on.</i><br /><br />Yeah. At that point, I was expecting Sam to either find Gilly slain by Slynt, or for Sam to get stabbed in the back by Slynt. Because <i>Game of Thrones</i>. <br /><br /><i>Thus, Jon relinquishes his sword to Sam and walks through the northern gate.</i><br /><br />I get leaving <i>that</i> sword behind with Sam, but maybe bring <i>a</i> sword with you on your mission to penetrate a massive enemy army and kill its leader? Or, as you say, Ghost. <br /><br /><i>On that note, why don't they just collapse the tunnels after the battle?</i><br /><br />Presumably it takes some time, but why not get started? Any headway would probably slow down Mance's army at least a little longer. <br /><br /><i>During this episode I came to the realization that Ygritte is/was probably my least favorite Game of Thrones character. </i><br /><br />I think I liked her a bit more than you, mainly just because she was a saucy redhead. I certainly didn't love the character, and won't miss her (aside from her saucy redheadedness). As you say, she had too many conflicting/ confusing/ill-defined motivations to really get a good handle on her. I never knew if I was supposed to be rooting for or against her, and while that's usually a good thing in a character, she wasn't developed enough to really appreciate that conflict. <br /><br /><i>We got a rather happy ending this episode which is rare in Game of Thrones. </i><br /><br />Indeed. Given the show's past, I was fearing Sam would be forced to watch someone rape Gilly, then be forced to eat the baby before he was killed himself. Or something like that. So huzzah happy ending!<br /><br />That said, like you, I'd have loved to see the castle fall (with Sam, Gilly, Jon surviving), just because the castle falling would have been a great "suck it, Lannisters & Boltons!" moment. So even in giving us a rare happy ending, the show still manages to be less satisfying than it could have been. Austin Gortonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14281239771248780430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-36186187982298206932014-06-11T10:12:29.401-05:002014-06-11T10:12:29.401-05:00I probably liked Blackwater better, just because I...I probably liked Blackwater better, just because I cared about the fate of those characters more (ie Tyrion surviving and Joffrey and dying), but this was definitely a better episode in terms of action and fight choreography and effects work and whatnot. As much as Blackwater was a big battle episode, it was still a lot of "watching people watching other people fight", whereas this episode had some actual (and enjoyable) fight scenes. <br /><br />I'm torn on the ending and scale of the battle too. This wasn't the huge army we'd heard about, it was a few hundred guys. Two giants and a mammoth is cool; hundreds of giants and mammoths would be even cooler. But the episode made it clear this was just a testing offensive, meant to probe the castle's defenses. Which explains the smaller scale of Mance's troops. <br /><br />Except...this was supposed to be the season's (and arguably series's) big battle episode. And while it was more action-packed than any other episode, it was, my its own admission, essentially just a small skirmish. Which would be fine, except I have little confidence we'll ever actually see that big battle with thousands of wildlings and hundreds of giants. <br /><br />In other (cruder) words, I feel like the show shot it's wad on a skirmish, instead of committing to showing us the real deal, and that's a bummer. Because this is probably the biggest scale, action-wise, the series can handle. <br /><br /> Austin Gortonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14281239771248780430noreply@blogger.com