tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post2498558215965476073..comments2024-03-28T10:18:00.370-05:00Comments on Gentlemen of Leisure: X-amining X-Men vs. Avengers #1-4Austin Gortonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14281239771248780430noreply@blogger.comBlogger30125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-7549244621474843702019-01-04T16:25:05.273-06:002019-01-04T16:25:05.273-06:00I've honestly never understood why Stern and B...I've honestly never understood why Stern and Byrne were so deadest on undoing Claremont's reformation of Magneto. Also it seems like Gruenwald and Macchio felt the same way due to Acts of Vengeance later on, but perhaps I'm mistaken.Jeff Cnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-50911574619619252602014-02-03T14:26:50.001-06:002014-02-03T14:26:50.001-06:00@wwk5d: Considering how many times he invaded/atta...@wwk5d: <i>Considering how many times he invaded/attacked the "Surface World" and/or trashed NYC, joining Doom is the least of his past shady acts lol</i><br /><br />True. I was just going for the "joining Doom/joining the Avengers" parallel structure. :) Austin Gortonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14281239771248780430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-23308393759631087562014-01-29T23:29:46.637-06:002014-01-29T23:29:46.637-06:00"to help reconcile the Namor who teamed up wi..."to help reconcile the Namor who teamed up with Doom and the one who joined the Avengers."<br /><br />Considering how many times he invaded/attacked the "Surface World" and/or trashed NYC, joining Doom is the least of his past shady acts lolwwk5dnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-78015399646925884612014-01-29T15:58:00.326-06:002014-01-29T15:58:00.326-06:00@Blam: e was revived in the '60s as a villain,...@Blam: <i>e was revived in the '60s as a villain, remember, and even after Roy Thomas fired up </i>Invaders<i> ... Namor was co-starring with Doctor Doom in </i>Super-Villain Team-Up. <br /><br />Yeah, I was think of Stern's <i>Avengers</i> run in the 80s, when he had Namor join the team at Cap's request, triggering a lot of public outrage and Cap voicing support for the reformation of his old wartime buddy. <br /><br />Which, of course, is probably one of those things that contributed to Byrne's desire to deploy the "oxygen imbalance" retcon, to help reconcile the Namor who teamed up with Doom and the one who joined the Avengers. Austin Gortonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14281239771248780430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-70400633407000105732014-01-28T18:06:44.786-06:002014-01-28T18:06:44.786-06:00@Teebore: // #149, when he's dictating info on...<br>@Teebore: <i>// #149, when he's dictating info on Magneto to the computer //</i><br /><br />Just the scene I was thinking of.<br /><br />@Teebore: <i>// Plus, of course, Namor is considered to be a mutant these days, and he and Cap have always been buddies due to their time in the Invaders together, so retroactively, there's that too. //</i><br /><br />I don't think there is that, honestly. Namor and Cap have tussled plenty of times. He was revived in the '60s as a villain, remember, and even after Roy Thomas fired up <i>Invaders</i> — in fact, pretty much at the same time, as both series launched with Giant-Size issues in 1975 — Namor was co-starring with Doctor Doom in <i>Super-Villain Team-Up</i>. <br /><br />Admittedly, I can't speak with much authority on Marvel continuity over the past 20 years, and really none at all over the past 10, but Namor was often an antihero at best for most of his existence before that. John Byrne established at the outset of the '90s <i>Namor</i> that his erratic allegiances were the result of some kind of oxygen imbalance that affected his hybrid metabolism over the years; I think it was even mentioned that the suit designed by Doom that allowed Namor to stay out of the sea longer without weakening stabilized his mood swings but in a direction suitable to Doom's needs rather than humanity's. <br /><br>Blamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07342343767763035991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-74501611916889472862014-01-28T17:28:58.799-06:002014-01-28T17:28:58.799-06:00@Jason: Of course that confrontation in NM40 is al...@Jason: <i>Of course that confrontation in NM40 is also another reason why this miniseries feels so redundant.</i><br /><br />Good point. NM40 really does handle the Avengers reaction to reformed Magneto better (and more concisely) than this does. Austin Gortonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14281239771248780430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-11437134115561093942014-01-28T17:22:22.911-06:002014-01-28T17:22:22.911-06:00That's why New Mutants 40 is so awesome ... th...That's why New Mutants 40 is so awesome ... that moment when Magneto calls Cap on his hypocrisy is so fantastic.<br /><br />(Of course that confrontation in NM40 is also another reason why this miniseries feels so redundant.)Jasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13298753675007196538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-15553341951599840642014-01-28T16:54:56.019-06:002014-01-28T16:54:56.019-06:00@wwk5d: Genocidal homicidal anti-human maniac who ...@wwk5d: <i>Genocidal homicidal anti-human maniac who didn't fight Nazis? The world demands justice!!!</i><br /><br />And, of course, it's even worse when you consider the only reason Magneto wasn't fighting Nazis was because <i>he was in one of their concentration camps</i>!Austin Gortonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14281239771248780430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-24351011663309692492014-01-27T14:16:54.919-06:002014-01-27T14:16:54.919-06:00"Plus, of course, Namor is considered to be a..."Plus, of course, Namor is considered to be a mutant these days, and he and Cap have always been buddies due to their time in the Invaders together, so retroactively, there's that too."<br /><br />Gotta love that hypocrisy on Caps part. Genocidal homicidal anti-human maniac who fought Nazis? Welcome to the Avengers! Genocidal homicidal anti-human maniac who didn't fight Nazis? The world demands justice!!!<br /><br />Magneto's actions in general just don't make sense. He doesn't want to go to surrender because he doesn't feel humans will give him a fair trial...but he willingly surrendered himself to Freedom Force in #199, in order to have the trial and make a point or whatever. And heck, during #200, he could have pretty much left whenever he wanted...it's not like the Avengers were there at the trial to stop him anytime he felt like using his powers to escape.<br /><br />This whole series would have made more sense had it came out pre-Uncanny #200, but coming out after? It just seems superfluous, in a "been there, done that, bought the t-shirt and was written much better" kind of way.. wwk5dnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-76379055445777420452014-01-27T12:26:51.678-06:002014-01-27T12:26:51.678-06:00@Blam: Having them release Magneto on the very pr...@Blam: <i> Having them release Magneto on the very premise that was struck down as an argument of the defense's at the outset of the miniseries, though, was a real "WTF?!?" capper.</i><br /><br />Yeah, I get the idea that Magneto has effectively altered the main judge's mind, but it seems odd that's the conclusion he'd come to as a result, and that the other, unaltered judges, didn't step in and say, "uh, I don't think we can let him off on that technicality, as we've already ruled against it". <br /><br /><i>but if I'm not mistaken we got at least a couple appearances of / references to Magneto before Claremont even decided that he'd known Xavier earlier in their lives.</i><br /><br />We certainly got some straight-up evil, non-reformed Magneto from Claremont early in his run, but while I have no idea when exactly Claremont came up with the "Magneto and Xavier go way back" idea, the only time I can think of offhand that Claremont directly contradicted it (rather than just not mentioning it either way, as in most pre-reformed appearances) was in issue #149, when he's dictating info on Magneto to the computer (or something like that) and refers to information about Magneto as "unknown" that he very well would know from their time together. <br /><br /><i>Not that Captain America can't just be good for goodness' sake — I think he is — but I wonder if his lack of anti-mutant prejudice wasn't informed by his time in the Invaders with Toro, who implicitly and later explicitly was a mutant born with an ability to control flame that manifested when he first met the original, android Human Torch.</i><br /><br />I agree that Cap probably is just good for goodness' sake, but I did not know (or have since forgotten) that Toro was a mutant (even though I've read a handful of stories involving him), so that's kinda neat. <br /><br />Plus, of course, Namor is considered to be a mutant these days, and he and Cap have always been buddies due to their time in the Invaders together, so retroactively, there's that too. Austin Gortonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14281239771248780430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-7591592542986637052014-01-26T23:05:33.441-06:002014-01-26T23:05:33.441-06:00// As the series ends, Magneto, who had worried th...<br><i>// As the series ends, Magneto, who had worried that his conviction would lead mutants to rise up against humanity, realizes that his acquittal has triggered a new wave of anti-mutant sentiment in humanity, an outcome he hadn't considered. //</i><br /><br />'Cause he's stupid?<br /><br />I didn't get the ruling at all. Of course there were <i>plenty</i> of problems with #4, beginning with the beginning — previous issues had picked up right where we left off, but with the last issue time had elapsed and it was really confusing. Having them release Magneto on the very premise that was struck down as an argument of the defense's at the outset of the miniseries, though, was a real "WTF?!?" capper.<br /><br />Magneto trying to reform may be a worthwhile and compelling storyline, even a valid <i>status quo</i> shift, but I have to admit that it's much harder to argue in his favor given that he was homicidal if not genocidal (<i>vis-à-vis</i> his war against non-mutant humanity) <i>after</i> his reversion to infancy and regrowth. Had Chris Claremont decided to take the tack with Magneto he eventually did a bit earlier, maybe that could've been avoided, but if I'm not mistaken we got at least a couple appearances of / references to Magneto before Claremont even decided that he'd known Xavier earlier in their lives.<br /><br />Also, I kind-of think that Magneto integrating himself back into society as headmaster at Xavier's invalidates any claim to being a nation unto himself. "You want to try to effect change from within now? Oh, sure, total amnesty for all your terrorist acts back when you didn't recognize the World Court's authority, no prob."<br /><br />Not that Captain America can't just be good for goodness' sake — I think he is — but I wonder if his lack of anti-mutant prejudice wasn't informed by his time in the Invaders with Toro, who implicitly and later explicitly was a mutant born with an ability to control flame that manifested when he first met the original, android Human Torch.<br /><br>Blamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07342343767763035991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-45382374327444391932014-01-26T12:33:14.451-06:002014-01-26T12:33:14.451-06:00"I recall that the FF vs X-Men concept seemed..."I recall that the FF vs X-Men concept seemed a non-starter to me. The huge 8 member X-Men roster had the FF beat by shear number, even before the first punch was thrown."<br /><br />Except they didn't in practice. Having a better chance of winning in theory means nothing in practice, especially in fiction, wherein the writer can manipulate events however he wishes.<br /><br />"By leaving two X-Men at home, the Avengers and X-Men had equal numbers. Certainly made it seem like the comic had the chance to have a fair fight."<br /><br />Kind of an academic point, since the fight never really occurs, but that's probably not a fair point since Stern's issue 4 would certainly have had the big slugfest.<br /><br />"The character moments were going to be limited with two teams, so leaving a few characters behind was an easy way to somewhat limit the clutter. Certainly better than the bloated feel of FF vs X-Men."<br /><br />FF/X-Men: 8 X-Men plus Kitty plus 4 FF'ers plus She-Hulk plus Franklin = ?<br />Fifteen.<br /><br />X/Av: 6 X-Men plus 6 Avengers plus 5 Soviet Super Soldiers = ?<br />Seventeen.<br /><br />Hmmm ... Which was more bloated again?Jasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13298753675007196538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-23692043146027358132014-01-25T13:45:55.010-06:002014-01-25T13:45:55.010-06:00@wwk5d: You know, in spite of that...I really like...@wwk5d: <i>You know, in spite of that...I really liked her. Stern did a good job writing her, and I was so bummed the way her character got shafted once Stern was off the book.</i><br /><br />Ditto. I've always had a soft spot for her, just because of how Stern used her in his run. <br /><br />Thanks for the link to the UncannyX-Men.net page - I've obviously spent some time on that site, but never came across that page before. It's nice to have some of that stuff in one convenient location to cross reference. <br /><br />@Teemu: <i>I'm sure you already know it but it was exactly not abiding to the editorial mandate to de-chair Capt. Marvel due to incompetence in favor of Capt. America that got Stern kicked out of the book.</i><br /><br />I did not know that! As much of a fan of his run that I am, I'd always wondered what it was that got Stern off the book and never knew, until now. That rationale is a shame, especially coming from Gruenwald. <br /><br />Also, yeah, if you haven't, check out <i>Nextwave</i>. It's tons of fun, and features Monica pretty heavily. <br />Austin Gortonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14281239771248780430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-54583094561928350272014-01-25T05:25:02.239-06:002014-01-25T05:25:02.239-06:00Yeah, I know about that. A blemish on Mark Gruenwa...Yeah, I know about that. A blemish on Mark Gruenwald's legacy, if you ask me.<br /><br />She basically spends the rest of her career as either a background character or guest star, sometimes extended, for the most part. Which is a shame. Though Warren Ellis does feature her as part of the cast of Nextwave, which is def a series worth checking out. wwk5dnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-66316484543472561712014-01-25T03:46:02.836-06:002014-01-25T03:46:02.836-06:00wwk5d, I'm sure you already know it but it was...wwk5d, I'm sure you already know it but it was exactly not abiding to the editorial mandate to de-chair Capt. Marvel due to incompetence in favor of Capt. America that got Stern kicked out of the book.<br /><br />Personally I've seen very little of Rambeau in action outside of Secret Wars and this book here, as in my native Finland the publisher had limits how much Marvel stuff they could throw at our way. Somehow there always was very little in the way of the Avengers and always something else than Stern's. Pre #200 in the eighties and then nothing before vol2.Teemunoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-90423132678961753622014-01-25T02:03:58.240-06:002014-01-25T02:03:58.240-06:00Speaking of behind the scenes drama, uncannyxmen.n...Speaking of behind the scenes drama, uncannyxmen.net has a whole series of articles about behind the scenes stuff. Some of the quotes during Claremont's first departure are very interesting, esp seeing the plans that never came about. One interesting but not Earth shattering idea was:<br /><br />"According to Amazing Heroes #188, early plans consisted of Cyclops, Rogue, Psylocke and Iceman starring in Uncanny X-Men, and Marvel Girl, Storm, Beast, Wolverine and Gambit starring in X-Men vol.2. Professor X would lead both teams with assistance from Forge."<br /><br />You can find all the articles here:<br /><br />http://www.uncannyxmen.net/secrets.aspwwk5dnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-48001064834941605722014-01-25T00:09:32.645-06:002014-01-25T00:09:32.645-06:00"his (insanely overpowered) creator's pet..."his (insanely overpowered) creator's pet Monica Rambeau"<br /><br />You know, in spite of that...I really liked her. Stern did a good job writing her, and I was so bummed the way her character got shafted once Stern was off the book.<br /><br />"Certainly better than the bloated feel of FF vs X-Men."<br /><br />I wouldn't say it was bloated at all. I think CC did a good job balancing both casts and gave just about everyone at least a moment or 2 of decent character work. I agree with Teebore, the FF series was hands down much better than this one.<br /><br />"It was amusing to read the arguments John Byrne uses to this day against Magneto reforming actually showing up in a printed comic book."<br /><br />It's like comic book porn for Byrne...<br /><br />"then why do we all love the downtime issues so much?"<br /><br />Well, for one thing, the downtime issues work better after a slugfest...which we never really got here, did we?wwk5dnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-80240543252747303982014-01-24T22:00:17.920-06:002014-01-24T22:00:17.920-06:00Oi, I think I got it cracked: it's like Roe vs...Oi, I think I got it cracked: it's like Roe vs. Wade or US vs. John Swan, it's a <i>courtroom battle</i>!<br /><br />Magneto is the X-Man, Wolverine said as much, and there's Captain America as the prosecutor's star witness. Ok, there still is an amount of hyperbola in the title, but technically...<br /><br />Which is not a saving grace at all because they fail badly in raising to the level of UXM 200 or the Trial of Reed Richards, as the procedurals go. Teemunoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-20856143524289894132014-01-24T13:44:12.798-06:002014-01-24T13:44:12.798-06:00@G. Kendall: It was amusing to read the arguments...@G. Kendall: <i> It was amusing to read the arguments John Byrne uses to this day against Magneto reforming actually showing up in a printed comic book.</i><br /><br />Ha! I like that way of looking at it. <br /><br />@Jason:<i>Sigh. How soon we forget! :) I asked Stern about this a while ago and posted it in the comments to the blog about X-Men 150 </i><br /><br />You know, I spent about a half hour combing the net after I pulled up the Legends Revealed post, because something told me I'd read a further embellishment/clarification of Stern's departure/original intent somewhere, but I couldn't remember where I'd read it. I even went back to your blog, knowing you didn't cover this series but thinking maybe you mentioned it in a comment to your FF vs. post or somewhere else, but couldn't find it. <br /><br />Of course, I didn't think to check my own blog (though I at least had the "Jason" and "comment" part right...). That's what I get for not noting it in my X-aminations notebook in OneNote...<br /><br /><i> none of us have talked about a really blindingly obvious weak point of DeFalco's issue #4 that absolutely devastated me as a kid:<br /><br />The X-Men and the Avengers don't fight each other.<br /><br />Talk about false advertising!</i><br /><br />Haha! That's a good point - along with everything else, that final issue really fails to deliver on the book's titular promise. <br /><br />@wwk5d: <i>Don't get me wrong, I really enjoyed Stern's Avengers run, but Dr. Druid was not one of the highlights of that run.</i><br /><br />Ditto. <br /><br /><i>Give CC credit where it is due, his series with the FF was a much more balanced and fair take on both teams. </i><br /><br />Agreed again. The FF mini is definitely the superior of the two, even discounting the awkward fourth issue of this series. <br /><br />@Geno: <i>By leaving two X-Men at home, the Avengers and X-Men had equal numbers. Certainly made it seem like the comic had the chance to have a fair fight.</i><br /><br />I agree, though I would have appreciate a better explanation for Psylocke and Longshot's absence. Why those two characters instead of, say, Longshot and Havok? Or Psylocke & Dazzler, etc. And given that the reserve explanation we get comes in issue #4, I wonder if Stern was ever going to even bother with explaining their absence at all. <br /><br />@Teemu: <i>Ha, if all we wanted was to see a slugfest...<br /><br />... then why do we all love the downtime issues so much?</i><br /><br />Those downtime issues definitely have their place (and I do love them), but I'd question whether their place is in a series titled "X-Men vs. the Avengers". They don't even have a quiet, verbal fight! :)Austin Gortonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14281239771248780430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-20206663448810298382014-01-24T07:06:46.345-06:002014-01-24T07:06:46.345-06:00Ha, if all we wanted was to see a slugfest...
......Ha, if all we wanted was to see a slugfest...<br /><br />... then why do we all love the downtime issues so much?Teemunoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-2829774502644642672014-01-23T18:31:08.768-06:002014-01-23T18:31:08.768-06:00You know, all this talk of the behind-the-scenes m...You know, all this talk of the behind-the-scenes machinations with this series, and the implications re: Magneto's character arc ... engaged in by all of us smart, cynical adults ... means that none of us have talked about a really blindingly obvious weak point of DeFalco's issue #4 that absolutely devastated me as a kid:<br /><br />The X-Men and the Avengers don't fight each other.<br /><br />Talk about false advertising!<br /><br />Jasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13298753675007196538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-75155808827566166802014-01-23T14:50:56.701-06:002014-01-23T14:50:56.701-06:00"For whatever reason, Longshot and Psylocke s..."For whatever reason, Longshot and Psylocke sit out most of this series, with issue #4 revealing that they're being held in reserve by Storm just in case they're needed."<br /><br />Leaving out a pair of X-Men was the best idea in the mini-series.<br /><br />I recall that the FF vs X-Men concept seemed a non-starter to me. The huge 8 member X-Men roster had the FF beat by shear number, even before the first punch was thrown.<br /><br />By leaving two X-Men at home, the Avengers and X-Men had equal numbers. Certainly made it seem like the comic had the chance to have a fair fight.<br /><br />The character moments were going to be limited with two teams, so leaving a few characters behind was an easy way to somewhat limit the clutter. Certainly better than the bloated feel of FF vs X-Men.<br /><br />-GenoAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-36545303674336645922014-01-23T13:27:57.550-06:002014-01-23T13:27:57.550-06:00Matt, poor choice of words on my part. I meant tha...Matt, poor choice of words on my part. I meant that if it was how Claremont/Byrne ended, namely that Byrne left the title soon afterwards, that might have blown Stern off. To my knowledge Stern was more on his pal Byrne's side in the creative wrestle whereas Weezie was more of the school that writers mainly write and pencillers pencil.Teemunoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-51961392541089343342014-01-23T11:22:56.859-06:002014-01-23T11:22:56.859-06:00Jason -- Y'know, I thought someone had posted ...Jason -- Y'know, I thought someone had posted something about Stern's response somewhere, and that it was most likely here, but I couldn't recall which issue it might have been attached to (of course 150 makes the most sense in retrospect).<br /><br />I <b>had</b> forgotten, however, that you actually went and asked Stern.<br /><br />Teemu -- I think Stern liked the Claremont/Byrne run -- he was the editor for the majority of it, after all -- but I suspect that, like Byrne, he may have become frustrated with Claremont from afar, after leaving the title.<br /><br />In his own way, Stern seems to be just as opinionated as Byrne is with regards to the definitively correct and incorrect ways to do comics -- but he's much gentler in his opinions and not as overly narrow-minded as Byrne.Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14580725636327122073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-51277007098806492802014-01-23T11:12:47.741-06:002014-01-23T11:12:47.741-06:00wwk5d, are there actual instances where Stern'...wwk5d, are there actual instances where Stern's... contempt would show? Didn't he like how Claremont/Byrne turned out or was he annoyed how (de-powered) Storm went to steal, ha, thunder from his (insanely overpowered) creator's pet Monica Rambeau as <i>the</i> black female team leader?<br /><br />Also, leaving Psylocke and Longshot for reserves when the rest go have a day at the beach? Storm is a jerk!Teemunoreply@blogger.com