tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post1773385345519827302..comments2024-03-28T10:18:00.370-05:00Comments on Gentlemen of Leisure: X-amining X-Men #122Austin Gortonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14281239771248780430noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-25930584056962889062011-08-19T15:01:04.123-05:002011-08-19T15:01:04.123-05:00@Anne: Then he can say her name in an annoying way...@Anne: <i>Then he can say her name in an annoying way </i><br /><br />Times like this, I wish there was a font for "terrible Russian accent". <br /><br />And don't worry; Illyana will make her presence known soon enough.Austin Gortonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14281239771248780430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-84281732901585246782011-08-19T09:20:16.127-05:002011-08-19T09:20:16.127-05:00Colossus clearly needs to head home and check up o...Colossus clearly needs to head home and check up on his sister. Then he can say her name in an annoying way (like he did in the original cartoon).Anne Ahiershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04695186823472404436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-39359095922796826002011-08-18T12:50:07.281-05:002011-08-18T12:50:07.281-05:00Matt: I would've been happier if they'd re...Matt: <i>I would've been happier if they'd removed or replaced the airport scene for the reprint! That would've eliminated a much bigger issue.</i><br /><br />Agreed! <br /><br /><i>In fact, I feel like it was Jason Powell who said he asked about it on Byrne's forum, and got some snarky answer.</i><br /><br />Yeah, I think that's where I first read it. <br /><br /><i>Comics thrive on suspension of disbelief, and I have no problem with that; in fact I embrace it. But this isn't a case of overthinking something. It's a case of sloppy storytelling.</i><br /><br />Agreed, again. There's definitely a difference between accepting that massive doses of radiation will give you awesome superpowers instead of painful cancer and accepting plot holes. <br /><br /><i>By the way, welcome back from your vacation!</i><br /><br />Thanks! It's nice to be back (on the interwebs, at least). <br /><br />@Sarah: <i>OT - OMG! I COMPLETELY forgot about Arcade as a character. CRAZY! </i><br /><br />Don't worry. From this point forward, he'll pop up enough that you won't forget about him again, whether you want to or not.Austin Gortonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14281239771248780430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-7140016519523166422011-08-17T21:44:16.073-05:002011-08-17T21:44:16.073-05:00man, i love reading all these comments. They'r...man, i love reading all these comments. They're great and really add to the posts.<br />OT - OMG! I COMPLETELY forgot about Arcade as a character. CRAZY!Sarah Ahiershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02795455714801965956noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-60493322218524713612011-08-17T18:56:03.945-05:002011-08-17T18:56:03.945-05:00"There are some added pages in the Classic X-..."<b>There are some added pages in the Classic X-Men reprint of issue #114</b>..."<br /><br />I think I recall you mentioning this the last time I brought it up, but I forgot. So at least that one is explained. But honestly, it's the smallest of the holes. I would've been happier if they'd removed or replaced the airport scene for the reprint! That would've eliminated a much bigger issue.<br /><br />"<b>Xavier being Xavier, probably not.</b>"<br /><br />I had the exact same thought!<br /><br />"<b>Byrne apparently insists that anyone who points this stuff out is simply thinking about it too much.</b>"<br /><br />I've seen that attributed to Byrne. In fact, I feel like it was Jason Powell who said he asked about it on Byrne's forum, and got some snarky answer.<br /><br />I'm fully on board with not overthinking things in comics. Comics thrive on suspension of disbelief, and I have no problem with that; in fact I embrace it. But this isn't a case of overthinking something. It's a case of sloppy storytelling. That doesn't mean I don't like the story, though, as I said earlier -- but it also doesn't mean I'm somehow reading it wrong.<br /><br />I think you're right about some "quiet" stories from the pen of Bob Harras, which isn't surprising since he edited Claremont for a few years. I'm really stumped right now to think of any more, though obviously there must have been something.<br /><br />"...<b>it wasn't the X-Men without some soap opera!</b>"<br /><br />I agree, and since my earlier comment, I've been thinking about how many pure soap opera issues Lobdell and Nicieza must have written. Some might have had a small one- or two-page skirmish here and there, but for the most part, they reserved big fights for the yearly crossovers -- which I actually think was a good way to make them seem special.<br /><br />I really need to go back and re-read their stuff soon. I relived it through Not Blog X, and I've been meaning to get to it myself and see what I think after all these years, but it just hasn't happened yet.<br /><br />By the way, welcome back from your vacation!Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14580725636327122073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-44425292584809029322011-08-17T17:12:27.426-05:002011-08-17T17:12:27.426-05:00@Dr. Bitz: 'm no Juggernaut historian either.....@Dr. Bitz: <i>'m no Juggernaut historian either...but Wikipedia pretends to be! And unless the time Juggernaut got mystical powers and battled with Doctor Strange had X-Men in it, he must be referring to Juggernaut's battle with Beast in Amazing Adventures #16.</i><br /><br />We all know Wikipedia is never wrong. I was thinking that battle with Beast was probably of what Claremont (via Black Tom) was thinking, but I'm tempted to call shenanigans on it: tangling with Beast solo is not the same as tangling with the entire X-Men.Austin Gortonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14281239771248780430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-43979148355727424572011-08-17T17:10:34.150-05:002011-08-17T17:10:34.150-05:00@Matt: 1. Professor X and Jean apparently never tr...@Matt: 1. <i>Professor X and Jean apparently never tried to sense the X-Men telepathically, (or were possibly blocked from doing so somehow).</i><br /><br />There are some added pages in the <i>Classic X-Men</i> reprint of issue #114 that show Phoenix trying to contact the X-Men telepathically, which reveals that Magneto screwed up the Earth's EM field to prevent long range telepathy. Which was apparently Claremont's retroactive workaround for that plot hole. <br /><br />2. ...<i>Misty never mentioned the encounter to the X-Men while in Japan, or on the long flight home from Japan, or during their layover in Canada, or when she and Cage bumped into Storm here.</i><br /><br />Yeah, there's just a few too many opportunities there for it have come up. <br /><br />3. ...<i>or Colleen comes off as kind of a tramp</i><br /><br />We do know she is rather forward. ;) <br /><br />4. <i>Banshee did not call the "love of his life", Moira MacTaggart</i><br /><br />Yeah, it's Banshee never calling Moira that really skunks it. Not after they get home, not after his injury, not after they arrive in Japan...<br /><br />5. <i>The X-Men have somehow not seen a single newspaper article or TV report on the world-renowned Avengers (which would include the presumed-dead Beast) since returning to civilization.</i><br /><br />And, vice-versa, Beast apparently never saw footage of or heard about the X-Men saving Japan from Moses Magnum. <br /><br /><i>(By the way, I never thought about this before, but I wonder if Xavier notified Colossus's parents that their son was "dead"?)</i><br /><br />Huh. I never thought of that either. Xavier being Xavier, probably not. <br /><br /><i>the unbelievability of all this is compounded by the fact that you get the impression the X-Men are back home for a while -- at least a few weeks -- </i><br /><br />Yeah, I'm pretty sure next issue references "weeks" having past since the X-Men got home. <br /><br />Claremont has acknowledged that the whole "everyone thinks the X-men are dead" routine didn't work quite right (and of course, tries it again later) but Byrne apparently insists that anyone who points this stuff out is simply thinking about it too much. <br /><br />Which is definitely a crusty, curmudgeonly, Byrnean thing to say, but as you said, it's true that the various plot holes. large though they may be, don't detract <i>too</i> much from the enjoyment of these stories. <br /><br /><i>I feel like the idea never really caught on with most other writers until some time later. I can't remember the first time I read a "non-fight" issue of a book unrelated to the mutant franchise.</i><br /><br />I'm pretty sure Harras had some during his <i>Avengers</i> run (or something pretty close to them) but there have to be some earlier, non-Claremont examples than that. I'll have to think about it. <br /><br /><i>Scott Lobdell and Fabian Nicieza did it a lot during their tenure on the X-Men as well, to the point that I often felt like there were more soap opera issues than action issues for a lot of their run -- but I ate that stuff up at the time, so they must've been doing something right!<br /></i><br /><br />Ditto. And the Lobdell/Nicieza stuff was going on while I was really getting into the X-Men, so that coupled with reading the Claremont back issues left me feeling (to this day) like it wasn't the X-Men without some soap opera! <br /><br /><i>I don't believe Claremont or Byrne had anything to do with it. Weren't they both gone from the title by that point?</i><br /><br />You are correct; that issue was written by Mary Jo Duffy (I don't even recall who did the art, that's how boring it was). But I think Duffy worked pretty closely with Claremont (what with Misty and Colleen moving between the two books) so I wouldn't be surprised if Claremont gave her the idea for using the Living Monolith and terminating his connection to the X-Men.Austin Gortonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14281239771248780430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-60906487186691262972011-08-17T15:37:37.207-05:002011-08-17T15:37:37.207-05:00I'm no Juggernaut historian either...but Wikip...I'm no Juggernaut historian either...but Wikipedia pretends to be! And unless the time Juggernaut got mystical powers and battled with Doctor Strange had X-Men in it, he must be referring to Juggernaut's battle with Beast in Amazing Adventures #16.Dr. Bitzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13568570859981368717noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-34611576072498877112011-08-17T12:43:31.289-05:002011-08-17T12:43:31.289-05:00I forgot about Colleen giving Cyclops a key to her...I forgot about Colleen giving Cyclops a key to her apartment. She certainly was forward!<br /><br />And yes, this is where things really start to fall apart re: the X-Men believing Jean and Beast dead and vice versa. I feel like it's beating a dead horse, but these are the coincidences and plot points that must be ignored to make it work:<br /><br />1. Professor X and Jean apparently never tried to sense the X-Men telepathically, (or were possibly blocked from doing so somehow).<br /><br />2. Jean and Misty saw each other in the flesh at the airport. Jean didn't mention she thought the X-Men were dead (which is fine), but Misty never mentioned the encounter to the X-Men while in Japan, or on the long flight home from Japan, or during their layover in Canada, or when she and Cage bumped into Storm here.<br /><br />3. As you note, Misty also apparently didn't tell Colleen that she had seen Jean, or Colleen comes off as kind of a tramp (although if she was trying to move in on Cyclops, I guess it makes sense she wouldn't mention Jean, so as to keep him from thinking about her).<br /><br />4. Banshee did not call the "love of his life", Moira MacTaggart, as soon as he got home (or as soon as the phones were turned back on at least). For that matter, Cyclops never called his brother, either... though it's kind of in his character not to, I suppose.<br /><br />5. The X-Men have somehow not seen a single newspaper article or TV report on the world-renowned Avengers (which would include the presumed-dead Beast) since returning to civilization.<br /><br />(By the way, I never thought about this before, but I wonder if Xavier notified Colossus's parents that their son was "dead"?)<br /><br />There are probably more, but those are the ones I could think of off the top of my head. And the unbelievability of all this is compounded by the fact that you get the impression the X-Men are back home for a while -- at least a few weeks -- before they are finally reunited with Beast and Jean.<br /><br />And as I've said before, in spite of all that, I love this storyline anyway. Somehow I can look the other way, because I like the issues of "downtime" adventures between the big world tour saga and the Proteus & Dark Phoenix stories, and because the payoff when Cyclops and Beast are reunited is so great.<br /><br />Anyway, moving past all that -- I've always really liked this issue (I feel like I'm saying that a lot lately, but it speaks to the quality of this run). The concept of a whole issue devoted to subplots is, as you note, something that was unheard of at the time, and something that Claremont would perfect over the years -- but I feel like the idea never really caught on with most other writers until some time later. I can't remember the first time I read a "non-fight" issue of a book unrelated to the mutant franchise.<br /><br />In fact, it's a style of comic book writing that, until this decade, I mainly associated with the X-Men family of titles. I know other titles did it from the 80's or so onwards, but Scott Lobdell and Fabian Nicieza did it <i>a lot</i> during their tenure on the X-Men as well, to the point that I often felt like there were more soap opera issues than action issues for a lot of their run -- but I ate that stuff up at the time, so they must've been doing something right!<br /><br />I would agree that the Living Monolith story in <i>Power Man & Iron Fist</i> can be seen as part of the X-Men's recent Neal Adams homage, but I don't believe Claremont or Byrne had anything to do with it. Weren't they both gone from the title by that point?<br /><br />And lastly, I'm not a Juggernaut historian, but I do know that he had a brief encounter with the Beast during his solo period between the X-Men and Avengers, shortly after he went furry. Maybe that's what Black Tom is referencing?Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14580725636327122073noreply@blogger.com