tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post907072958949712261..comments2024-03-28T10:18:00.370-05:00Comments on Gentlemen of Leisure: X-amining Uncanny X-Men #150Austin Gortonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14281239771248780430noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-7836545498283940202012-04-17T17:01:11.414-05:002012-04-17T17:01:11.414-05:00I was getting tired and mistyped. What I meant to ...<br>I was getting tired and mistyped. What I meant to say was "making for a potentially successful toy line" (to rival <i>Super Powers</i>), in contrast to the virtually guaranteed big sales of the crossover. I had been reading fan mags like <i>Amazing Heroes</i> for a while at that point, going to conventions for even longer, and I must say that the buzz over <i>Secret Wars</i> — the miniseries itself, and the changes for each involved character that it would bring — was not something I (granted, about 13 at the time) had seen or felt before.Blamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07342343767763035991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-81522535680893115152012-04-17T06:52:28.427-05:002012-04-17T06:52:28.427-05:00"Secret Wars may have had a marketing impetus..."Secret Wars may have had a marketing impetus in the general sense, crossing over all its characters for guaranteed big sales and, as you say, potentially making for a toy line,"<br /><br />There was no "potentially" about it. The Secret Wars miniseries was created specifically to sell toys.Jasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13298753675007196538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-14619842041167226622012-04-16T23:18:02.621-05:002012-04-16T23:18:02.621-05:00I see that our host beat me to the punch on parsin...<br>I see that our host beat me to the punch on parsing Stern's inexact use of "the marketing folk". That's what I get for not refreshing the page!<br /><br />Teebore: <i>besides, half the fun of the comments of these posts are seeing what random tangents we go off on</i><br /><br />I'm always glad to hear you say this. 8^)<br /><br>Blamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07342343767763035991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-23855333068919799422012-04-16T23:14:28.248-05:002012-04-16T23:14:28.248-05:00Matt: I'm glad Roger Stern is so candid and ho...<br>Matt: <i>I'm glad Roger Stern is so candid and honest with his behind-the-scenes anecdotes.</i><br /><br />He's definitely one of the good guys. At some point I called him out, as friendly as possible, for having to toe the company line and insist that there were no plans to bring Superman back when I interviewed him in 1992 about "The Death of..."; he was apologetic and said that when he did all those interviews he tried to speak as carefully and literally as possible.<br /><br />Matt: <i>Interesting that the marketing department was dictating things as early as 1987...</i><br /><br />I highly doubt that it was the marketing department <i>per se</i> dictating things as opposed to the marketing / business sensibilities of the higher-up editorial and publishing staff who had to worry about things like keeping characters in trademark by guest-starring them and using their logos periodically, introducing characters ( Spider-Woman, for instance, as discussed here recently) to <i>expand</i> trademarks and/or prevent others from encroaching on Marvel's territory, having primacy over licensing partners (in the case of She-Hulk, say, or the Spider-Mobile), and generally recognizing that fan-favorite characters allowed for milking money from fans' wallets — especially as the Marvel zombie and subsets like die-hard X-Men or Punisher collectors became a real traceable thing.<br /><br /><i>Secret Wars</i> may have had a marketing impetus in the general sense, crossing over all its characters for guaranteed big sales and, as you say, potentially making for a toy line, but it predated <i>The X-Men vs. The Avengers</i> (indicia title per GCD) by a while. I also recall it, and <i>The Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe</i>, being done in anticipation of <i>Crisis on Infinite Earths</i> and <i>Who's Who: The Definitive Directory of the DC Universe</i>, which DC had long had in the works for its 50th anniversary, allowing Marvel to say that DC had cribbed its projects from "The House of Ideas" even though it was generally acknowledged within the industry as rather the opposite.<br /><br>Blamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07342343767763035991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-12510042735479869832012-04-16T16:37:40.194-05:002012-04-16T16:37:40.194-05:00@Matt: I wonder when they actually got involved wi...@Matt: <i>I wonder when they actually got involved with the creative process for the very first time?</i><br /><br />That's a good question. I suppose it depends on the definition of "marketing". The marketing department as we think of it now, yeah, probably <i>Secret Wars</i>. But that certainly wasn't the first time financial concerns outside the comics led to stories within them, like the aforementioned Spider-Mobile or the various licensed properties or heck, even Stan Lee's idea to cross characters over into other titles to help boost sales. <br /><br /><i>your blog needs a message board so I can stop going off in random directions in all my comments. </i><br /><br />Nah, message boards get too unwieldy and hard to maintain; besides, half the fun of the comments of these posts are seeing what random tangents we go off on!Austin Gortonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14281239771248780430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-90777875114436072262012-04-12T14:25:57.596-05:002012-04-12T14:25:57.596-05:00Just occurred to me -- maybe it was Secret Wars? ...Just occurred to me -- maybe it was <i>Secret Wars</i>? The mini-series was conceived to sell action figures as a response to Kenner's <i>Super Powers</i> line... but again, from what I've read, that was Mattel coming to Marvel and pitching a toyline with a comic book tie-in. I'm trying to think of an occasion when the marketing department might have specifically come up with the idea <i>first</i> and then pitched it to creative and any outside parties.<br /><br />Teebore, your blog needs a message board so I can stop going off in random directions in all my comments. Though honestly, I don't think that would stop me.Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14580725636327122073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-51488443636983463352012-04-12T14:23:12.928-05:002012-04-12T14:23:12.928-05:00I guess that settles that! I'm glad Roger Ste...I guess that settles that! I'm glad Roger Stern is so candid and honest with his behind-the-scenes anecdotes. I know there's really no reason I should trust his recollections any more or less than any other pro, but for whatever reason, I tend to believe that if "Uncle Rog" said it, it must be accurate and true.<br /><br />Interesting that the marketing department was dictating things as early as 1987... I usually hear about them being heavily involved starting during the boom of the early 90's. I wonder when they actually got involved with the creative process for the very first time?<br /><br />I know Gerry Conway was forced in the 70's to come up with a "Spider-mobile" against his will, but I think that was really just because a toy company came to Stan Lee and wanted him to create one. Not sure that counts as "marketing", per se.Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14580725636327122073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-82480737197313811862012-04-12T12:59:47.232-05:002012-04-12T12:59:47.232-05:00@Jason: Got an answer from Roger Stern himself!
W...@Jason: <i>Got an answer from Roger Stern himself!</i><br /><br />Wow, Jason, that's fantastic! Thanks for tracking it down and sharing it with us. <br /><br />Good to know it was just a series that got away from Stern, and that Stern himself wasn't trying to push his vision of the character.Austin Gortonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14281239771248780430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-68232186930535285052012-04-12T12:46:05.041-05:002012-04-12T12:46:05.041-05:00Got an answer from Roger Stern himself!
He wrote:...Got an answer from Roger Stern himself!<br /><br />He wrote:<br /><br />"<br />Well, in the first place, I wasn't planning on making any sweeping change in Magneto. Mind you, I thought the idea of the X-Men (and their readers) so easily believing that Magneto was "a good guy now" and accepted as their leader/teacher in Xavier's absence was at the very least unwise. But that had become the status quo in the X-books, and it wasn't my place to monkey with it. I intended to just ignore it.<br /><br />But then, the marketing folk decided that there should be an Avengers vs. X-Men miniseries (and a Fantastic Four vs. the Avengers) miniseries. And I was told that if I didn't write it, someone else would.<br /><br />With that hanging over my head, I had to deal with the fact that a notorious international terrorist was in charge on the X-Men.<br /><br />So, I had to come up with a way of allowing Magneto to go on doing what he was doing in the X-Men, without making the Avengers look foolish for letting him go.<br /><br />I thought I had. I outlined the entire miniseries before I started, and got it approved. I wouldn't have even started on the project without that approval.<br /><br />But then, after the final plot was written, everything was changed. And I never got an answer as to why.<br /><br />So I passed on scripting the final issue.<br /><br />If I'd known that I was soon going to be fired from the Avengers, I probably would have passed on the entire project."<br /><br />So speaks Rog!<br /><br />I also found a transcript online of Stern's original proposal, which is completely different from what saw print. i.e., even the issues of Avengers vs X-Men that Stern wrote are not what he proposed. The original version actually sounds much cooler, and with more fight scenes. :)Jasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13298753675007196538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-66001084276395893732012-04-11T11:35:14.388-05:002012-04-11T11:35:14.388-05:00Blam -- "Were you playing the actual Marvel S...Blam -- "<b>Were you playing the actual Marvel Super-Heroes RPG?</b>"<br /><br />Yup, it was TSR's <i>Marvel Super Heroes Advanced Game</i>. I played that off and on with my friends from the fifth grade all the way up to the end of high school.<br /><br />When we were in college, TSR released a new card-based Marvel RPG, called <i>Marvel Super Heroes Saga Edition</i>. We played that one through college and for a year or two after, until everyone moved away. I still miss playing those games sometimes!<br /><br />I never tried <i>Champions</i>, I think because it wasn't based on anything. I had <i>DC Heroes</i>, but I barely understood it. Every character had something like nine stats for some reason! And all the point calculations and such gave me a headache. It sometimes felt more like math homework than a game.<br /><br />"...<b>the stats for, say, Strength were just, like, Strong, Really Strong, Super-Strong...</b>"<br /><br />Feeble, Poor, Good, Excellent, Remarkable, Incredible, Amazing, Monstrous, Unearthly. :-)<br /><br />I will never forget that scale for as long as I live!<br /><br />(And technically if you want to get really fancy, the full scale went: Shift-0, Feeble, Poor, Good, Excellent, Remarkable, Incredible, Amazing, Monstrous, Unearthly, Shift-X, Shift-Y, Shift-Z, Class 1000, Class 3000, Class 5000, Beyond.)Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14580725636327122073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-91140038765580117992012-04-10T23:12:28.668-05:002012-04-10T23:12:28.668-05:00Teebore: I really want to say that was established...<br>Teebore: <i>I really want to say that was established in the comics prior to the movie, but I can't for the life of me think of when...and could very well be confusing it in my head with the ability of Juggernaut's helmet to block him from telepathy.</i><br /><br />Having poked around a bit I find that it has been used that way in the comics but not necessarily before 2000's <i>X-Men</i> movie. What's so "funny" about that is that the movie usage makes perfect sense, and I totally get why they wanted to have a reason for Magneto to wear such an awkward thing in a live-action movie, but they went to the trouble of making the helmet entirely purple (when, hell, it could've been silver or even ebony to go with Magneto's all-black outfit) yet the lining of his cape was red instead of purple and clashed with the helmet <i>horribly</i>. Ah well.<br /><br />Matt: <i>I've never read </i>X-Men vs. Avengers<i>, but I know of it, and the thing that's always confused me is: my understanding was that in the Shooter days, if one office wanted to make any major changes to a character from another family, they needed to get special permission to do so from that character's normal editor.</i><br /><br />To be precise, you could do whatever you wanted but Shooter would catch it at the last minute before it was printed and make you rework the issue. No, wait, that's if you working on your <i>own</i> characters...<br /><br />I've never read <i>X-Men vs. Avengers</i> either, as it came out right after I'd dropped the regular title, not liking the direction it was going and sick of all the spinoffs too. Just a few years earlier, though, I was right in the throes of my <i>X-Men</i> mania; I picked up not only <i>The X-Men and the Micronauts</i>, despite not reading <i>The Micronauts</i>, but the one-shot <i>Obnoxio the Clown vs. the X-Men</i> and, eventually, the elusive <i>Dallas Times Herald</i> giveaway <i>The Uncanny X-Men at the State Fair of Texas</i> (totally not worth it except for bragging rights). I haven't read any of these since back in the day, unlike genuinely good stuff like <i>X-Men / Alpha Flight</i>, so I'm really looking forward to covering them here.<br /><br />VW: <i>daymews</i> — My cat's morning wake-up call.Blamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07342343767763035991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-78017334168658411642012-04-10T23:08:45.479-05:002012-04-10T23:08:45.479-05:00Matt: At least, when I was an avid RPG player in t...<br>Matt: <i>At least, when I was an avid RPG player in the 80's and 90's, I don't recall any Marvel RPG stats listing Magneto's helmet as anything other than standard armor. And those games were pretty meticulous -- they included Magneto's seldom-used ability to enter the astral plane!</i><br /><br />Were you playing the actual <i>Marvel Super-Heroes</i> RPG? I remember it being a real letdown that the stats for, say, Strength were just, like, Strong, Really Strong, Super-Strong... <i>Champions</i> and the <i>DC Heroes</i> RPG (I never tried <i>V&V</i>) were much more familiarly points-oriented like <i>D&D</i> and could easily accommodate characters from any "universe" so I gave up on <i>MSH</i> pretty quickly.Blamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07342343767763035991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-72683568936699291862012-04-09T16:04:59.932-05:002012-04-09T16:04:59.932-05:00@Matt: So how did this mini even get off the groun...@Matt: <i>So how did this mini even get off the ground, if it was going to perform such a sweeping change to Magneto? </i><br /><br />I've often wondered about that too, but have yet to encounter a good explanation. <br /><br /><i>what about other X-Men mini-series and/or one-shots, like the one with the Micronauts? </i><br /><br />My plan, at least until things get really crazy in the mid to late 90s, is to cover everything, including the miniseries and one shots (and even some more ancillary stuff, like the Longshot mini). Though I won't be covering all the X-Men guest appearances in other titles, just the ones (like <i>Avengers</i> Annual 10) that have a significant impact on the main series or that I particularly enjoy. <br /><br />I've never actually read the X-Men/Micronauts mini, and thought about leaving it off because I'm not terribly familiar with the Micronauts, but the completest in me won't allow that, and I am kind of curious to write about something for this series that I've never read before.Austin Gortonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14281239771248780430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-32529092765323459422012-04-09T15:32:23.257-05:002012-04-09T15:32:23.257-05:00'So how did this mini even get off the ground,...'So how did this mini even get off the ground, if it was going to perform such a sweeping change to Magneto? Obviously Claremont and/or Nocenti wouldn't have agreed to it. Did the Avengers folks just start producing the thing unilaterally? It makes no sense."<br /><br />I've often wondered the same thing. I wonder if the full story is out on the net somewhere ... must explore ...Jasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13298753675007196538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-61534886463097400862012-04-09T11:20:16.874-05:002012-04-09T11:20:16.874-05:00I've never read X-Men vs. Avengers, but I know...I've never read <i>X-Men vs. Avengers</i>, but I know of it, and the thing that's always confused me is: my understanding was that in the Shooter days, if one office wanted to make any major changes to a character from another family, they needed to get special permission to do so from that character's normal editor.<br /><br />So how did this mini even get off the ground, if it was going to perform such a sweeping change to Magneto? Obviously Claremont and/or Nocenti wouldn't have agreed to it. Did the Avengers folks just start producing the thing unilaterally? It makes no sense.<br /><br />Anyway, Teebore -- will you be reviewing that series? It's not Claremont, but it does have the X-Men's name on the cover... and for that matter, what about other X-Men mini-series and/or one-shots, like the one with the Micronauts? I'm assuming you'll do the F.F. one, since Claremont wrote it... but since this series is about <i>all</i> X-Men stuff and not just the Claremont material, I'm curious.Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14580725636327122073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-62007783405788379182012-04-07T17:38:59.118-05:002012-04-07T17:38:59.118-05:00"As I'm not a huge fan of that mini, I..."As I'm not a huge fan of that mini, I've only read it maybe once, so I'd completely forgotten about that."<br /><br />I'm not a huge fan either, although I like the early work by Silvestri. (I think it was his work on that that brought him to the attention of Ann Nocenti.) And I only remember the bit I mentioned because I recently paged through the TPB in a store. :)<br /><br />"What bugs me the most about it is, even if, as a writer, you happen to disagree with the direction another writer is taking a character, it seems like poor form to step in, while that other writer is still handling the character, and try to force the character back to the characterization you prefer."<br /><br />I'd tend to agree. It's interesting that unlike Byrne, Stern seems to be pretty well-respected in the industry as a gentlemen. So it's surprising to me he tried to pull a move like this. It's totally expected from Byrne (the guy who messed with Magneto in Acts of Vengeance), but it seems out of character for Stern. <br /><br />" Once a writer leaves a book, those characters are fair game, but I don't like the idea of trying to undercut the writer while he's still working on the book. "<br /><br />Agreed. I'm glad Claremont pretty much completely ignored the events of Avengers vs. X-Men (except for a passing, dismissive reference in a New Mutants annual at the time). Good on you, Chris!Jasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13298753675007196538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-9666891093002834302012-04-07T12:29:07.416-05:002012-04-07T12:29:07.416-05:00@Jason: Speaking for myself, her writing are part ...@Jason: <i>Speaking for myself, her writing are part of what made me realize just what an amazing accomplishment Claremont's Magneto is.</i><br /><br />As it is your writing that elevated Claremont's Magneto in my esteem from "my favorite iteration of the character" to "one of Claremont's greatest achievements", I will definitely have to check out her stuff as well. <br /><br />@Blam: <i>Magneto's helmet shielding him from telepathic attack is, as far as I know, a conceit introduced in the first X-Men film.</i><br /><br />I really want to say that was established in the comics prior to the movie, but I can't for the life of me think of when...and could very well be confusing it in my head with the ability of Juggernaut's helmet to block him from telepathy.Austin Gortonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14281239771248780430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-39977254820588112972012-04-07T12:17:32.221-05:002012-04-07T12:17:32.221-05:00@Jason: I mentioned it on my blog entry for the is...@Jason: <i>I mentioned it on my blog entry for the issue, but I always kind of liked that instead of staying good friends, Storm and Cyclops became rivals.</i><br /><br />Me too, especially since there's a moment, in issue #154 I think, where it starts to seem like maybe Claremont is hitting at a relationship between the two, and I like the idea of friendly rivals much, much more. <br /><br /><i>Stern very painstakingly recounts all of Magneto's acts of Silver Age villainy.</i><br /><br />As I'm not a huge fan of that mini, I've only read it maybe once, so I'd completely forgotten about that. What bugs me the most about it is, even if, as a writer, you happen to disagree with the direction another writer is taking a character, it seems like poor form to step in, while that other writer is still handling the character, and try to force the character back to the characterization you prefer. <br /><br />Putting aside that I happen to like Claremont's version of Magneto more than Byrne/Stern's vision of him, what really bugs me about <i>Avengers vs. X-Men</i> is the way it creates this bubble of inconsistency in Magneto's portrayal at the time (this of course happens again later in Claremont's run with "Acts of Vengeance"). Once a writer leaves a book, those characters are fair game, but I don't like the idea of trying to undercut the writer while he's still working on the book. <br /><br />@Matt: <i>I believe I mentioned it here some time ago, but "Magneto as ruler of Genosha" is quite possibly my all-time favorite status quo for the guy. </i><br /><br />I also really like that status quo.Austin Gortonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14281239771248780430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-87959510396025928482012-04-06T16:43:37.892-05:002012-04-06T16:43:37.892-05:00"By the way, I just wanted to mention that I&..."By the way, I just wanted to mention that I've read and enjoyed your entire series on Chris Claremont's X-Men run. Though the whole run isn't exactly for me, I liked your often thought-provoking analyses. About a year or so ago I left a series of frothing pro-Bob Harras comments on several of the last entries, but hopefully that didn't come across as me disliking your work!"<br /><br />Ah, thank you, Matt! <br /><br />I do remember those comments! I am a little tough on Mr. Harras, tis true. But only because I hate him. :)<br /><br />No, I actually do like some of the stuff that happened under his editorship. I just found it a little conservative and uninteresting, coming on the heels of the Nocenti era, when things were so marvelously insane.Jasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13298753675007196538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-31935193848420668672012-04-06T11:15:22.666-05:002012-04-06T11:15:22.666-05:00Jason -- "So the seeming ret-con turns out ac...Jason -- "<b>So the seeming ret-con turns out actually to be a red herring.</b>"<br /><br />Thanks for the memory refresher! I'm not sure why I have such difficulty recalling the exact events of <i>X-Men</i> #1-3. I've read those issues several times -- though admittedly the last time was probably about a decade ago.<br /><br />Jason -- "<b>I'd highly recommend googling "Rivka Jakobs Magneto"</b>."<br /><br />I'll look into this, thanks.<br /><br />By the way, I just wanted to mention that I've read and enjoyed your entire series on Chris Claremont's X-Men run. Though the whole run isn't exactly for me, I liked your often thought-provoking analyses. About a year or so ago I left a series of frothing pro-Bob Harras comments on several of the last entries, but hopefully that didn't come across as me disliking your work!<br /><br />Blam -- "...<b>Magneto's helmet shielding him from telepathic attack is, as far as I know, a conceit introduced in the first X-Men film</b>..."<br /><br />I'm not one hundred percent positive, but I think you may be right. At least, when I was an avid RPG player in the 80's and 90's, I don't recall any Marvel RPG stats listing Magneto's helmet as anything other than standard armor. And those games were pretty meticulous -- they included Magneto's seldom-used ability to enter the astral plane! And if they remembered that, I'm pretty sure they would've remembered any psychic shielding, if indeed his helmet had been known to provide it at the time.Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14580725636327122073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-60634704725095351932012-04-05T21:24:59.139-05:002012-04-05T21:24:59.139-05:00I forgot to mention this earlier, but various scen...<br>I forgot to mention this earlier, but various scenes in #150 — Magneto seen casually without his helmet, Professor X attacking him psionically from afar <i>with</i> his helmet on — reminded me that Magneto's helmet shielding him from telepathic attack is, as far as I know, a conceit introduced in the first <i>X-Men</i> film. Am I right about that, or did any of the comic-book writers introduce either a new such helmet or the idea that the helmet always had such properties (never mind it not working that way in older stories) when I wasn't reading? I do have large swaths of ignorance about the mutant titles post-1986.Blamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07342343767763035991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-86371293907802780232012-04-05T20:31:28.808-05:002012-04-05T20:31:28.808-05:00"Also, I was thinking -- I somehow always for..."Also, I was thinking -- I somehow always forget this -- you might think I've mentally blocked it or something -- but isn't there a bit in X-Men #1-3 where Moira reveals that she tampered with Magneto's DNA while he was a baby in an attempt to make him more benevolent? Never mind that I don't quite think DNA works like that, but I suppose if you consider that ret-con, then maybe in the moment where Magneto believes he's killed Kitty, that alteration is somehow "triggered", explaining his extremely abrupt and hard-to-believe change of heart."<br /><br />Not exactly. The seed was planted in a backup story by Claremont in Classic X-Men 19, which suggests that an aspect of Magneto's power has an effect on his brain. The story strongly suggests that the traumas he suffered throughout his life, in tandem with the effect that manipulating magnetism was having on his mental functions, combined to create the criminally insane (as it were) Magneto. <br /><br />In X-Men 1-3, we learn that Moira figured this out while Magneto was a baby, and attempted to "correct" Magneto at the genetic level -- she wanted to fix what she calls the "instability" in how his mutation interacts with brain functions -- and in so doing she could prevent him from growing up insane a second time.<br /><br />The fuzzy logic comes in in that she then somehow does behavior modification on the rest of the X-Men ... which doesn't exactly make sense, because it wasn't behavior modification she was doing on Magneto, not really -- she was correcting some sort of genetic flaw. But in anycase, the upshot is that the X-Men shake off the brainwashing in like two days or something, which proves that Moira's methodology did not work, and therefore whatever she did to Magneto was a dud. All the choices he made during Claremont's run were -- we are told -- made on his own. So the seeming ret-con turns out actually to be a red herring.<br /><br />That said, we're still left with the notion that Magneto's villainous tendencies are the result of a mental instability resulting from how his powers work. <br /><br />I'd highly recommend googling "Rivka Jakobs Magneto" ... she has a pretty brilliant analysis of Magneto as a character -- his biography, his psychology, his Judaism, etc. -- spread over the course of several essays. Speaking for myself, her writing are part of what made me realize just what an amazing accomplishment Claremont's Magneto is. In my opinion it's one of the most three-dimensional psychological portraits that's been constructed in any superhero comic, ever.<br /><br />(Whether looking for three-dimensionality in the pages of superhero comics is a worthwhile endeavor in the first place, well, I suppose that's another debate entirely.)Jasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13298753675007196538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-36845552412370719802012-04-05T19:27:28.548-05:002012-04-05T19:27:28.548-05:00Matt: I have no doubt that this is the issue that ...<br><br />Matt: <i>I have no doubt that this is the issue that made me a fan of the X-Men.</i><br /><br />You had good taste in preferring the "old" stuff to what was current then, IMO. 8^)<br /><br />And God bless reprint series like <i>Classic X-Men</i>. My own childhood was filled with reprints from dedicated series like <i>Marvel Tales</i> and <i>Marvel Triple Action</i> to DC's great 100-Page Super-Spectaculars to treasury editions from both of the Big Two to reprint paperback and hardcovers from Pocket, Fireside, and Harmony/Bonanza. TPBs collecting specific storylines from the comic-book publishers themselves didn't start 'til a bit later, and it was a <i>long</i> time before we had comprehensive reprint programs like there are today.<br /><br />Matt: <i>I learned to unconditionally love the works of Jim Lee, Marc Silvestri, and Erik Larsen in short order -- but McFarlane continued, and still continues, to do nothing for me.</i><br /><br />Hmm... I'm tempted to take back a smidgen of my compliment on your good taste, but I can see value in the works of Lee, Silvestri, and Larsen even if I wouldn't use anything like the phrase "unconditionally love". Even McFarlane's earliest work, on DC's <i>Infinity Inc.</i>, intrigued me in terms of his creative layouts, but I hated his actual rendering and the finishing/inking of Tony DeZuniga on top of it. His later Marvel and then Image work was and is just terrible to me, as is Liefeld's stuff. Larsen, I think, is by far the most solid draftsman, although I was surprised by Lee on <i>Batman: Hush</i>; Larsen is also — fairly ironically in terms of the whole Peter David <i>CBG</i> "Name Withheld" brouhaha, which I lived through — by far the best writer in the bunch. I never got into <i>The Savage Dragon</i> the way some friends did, but I appreciate his creativity and work ethic on it, and I actually like Larsen's <i>Defenders</i> run with Kurt Busiek. I dump a lot of hate Lee's way on my still as-yet-unpublished blogpost(s) on the DC New 52 <i>Justice League</i>, although that of course applies to his art; the guy seems like a genuinely nice fellow, fan, and family man. I didn't last long on the new adjectiveless <i>X-Men</i> when it started up under Claremont/Lee, nor on <i>Uncanny X-Men</i> with, I think, Whilce Portacio drawing, but at least I got some sellable "collector's item" issues out of the curiosity buys.Blamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07342343767763035991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-47366968120663780692012-04-05T17:35:13.019-05:002012-04-05T17:35:13.019-05:00Teebore -- "...in the beginning of the trial,...Teebore -- "...<b>in the beginning of the trial, Xavier and Gabby Haller successfully argue that Magneto's reversion to infancy constitutes a "clean slate"</b>..."<br /><br />Oh yeah, I totally forgot about that! Okay, in that case I'll let it slide.<br /><br />Also, I was thinking -- I somehow <i>always</i> forget this -- you might think I've mentally blocked it or something -- but isn't there a bit in <i>X-Men</i> #1-3 where Moira reveals that she tampered with Magneto's DNA while he was a baby in an attempt to make him more benevolent? Never mind that I don't quite think DNA works like that, but I suppose if you consider that ret-con, then maybe in the moment where Magneto believes he's killed Kitty, that alteration is somehow "triggered", explaining his extremely abrupt and hard-to-believe change of heart.<br /><br />(Though I still believe that before the ret-con was in place, it made no sense.)<br /><br />Teebore -- "...<b>that sounds a lot like the Magneto who ran around in the 90s and was generally written somewhere between the "not quite a hero/not quite a villain" position in which Claremont left him and the ranting lunatic villain of the 60s</b>..."<br /><br />Hmm, now that you mention it, you're right. I liked that version of Magneto. He was inarguably way over the top in "Fatal Attractions", but when he finally returned years later for "Magneto War", he had basically become the Magneto that I enjoy most. I believe I mentioned it here some time ago, but "Magneto as ruler of Genosha" is quite possibly my all-time favorite status quo for the guy.Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14580725636327122073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-10498140926818812682012-04-05T12:04:40.643-05:002012-04-05T12:04:40.643-05:00"I forget in what detail they cover his past,..."I forget in what detail they cover his past, non-Leningrad crimes (though I'm pretty sure the South American country doesn't get brought up), but in the beginning of the trial, Xavier and Gabby Haller successfully argue that Magneto's reversion to infancy constitutes a "clean slate", (essentially that becoming an infant more or less "killed" the man he was) and that only crimes he committed post-becoming an adult again should be judged by the court (all of which, of course, echoes Claremont's statements in the Companion interview along those lines). "<br /><br />Yeah, Claremont was obviously trying to wipe the slate clean of all the Silver Age nonsense.<br /><br />When Roger Stern did his X-Men vs. Avengers mini, he (as John Byrne notes in your quote) was very much keen to remind people that Magneto was a bastard. In the first issue of that series, Stern very painstakingly recounts all of Magneto's acts of Silver Age villainy. The Leningrad is also brought up yet again, of course. But so is all that stuff Matt mentioned ... the city in South America, etc.<br /><br />(And now that I think of it, I believe Claremont brought up the Leningrad in the contemporaneous "X-Men vs. Fantastic Four" series. The first issue of that series has She-Hulk, in lawyer mode, talking about the Magneto trial from issue 200. I feel like the Leningrad incident has to have gotten brought up in that scene.)Jasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13298753675007196538noreply@blogger.com