tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post6255875898934655298..comments2024-03-28T10:18:00.370-05:00Comments on Gentlemen of Leisure: X-amining X-Force #18Austin Gortonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14281239771248780430noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-56682570822065780212017-04-24T14:33:59.988-05:002017-04-24T14:33:59.988-05:00Adler: Chris Claremont stated over a decade ago o...Adler: <i>Chris Claremont stated over a decade ago on Comixfan that it was never his intention for Rachel to evolve into "Mother Askani".</i><br /><br />Of course not. The Askani and that whole future timeline weren't his idea.<br /><br />His endgame for Rachel was for her to become Kitty's wife.<br /><br /><i>While she refers to young Nathan as "little brother", her additional reference to "our father" when talking to him would seem to rule her out as connected to Rachel since Uncanny X-Men Annual #14, also penned by Claremont, ruled out Scott as Rachel's father;)</i><br /><br />Claremont's intent was for Rachel to be the daughter of Jean and the Phoenix force. This is why, in his mid-2000s run on <i>Uncanny</i>, she had no cross-time counterparts. <br /><br />It was all part of a series of retcons he began implementing in the mid-80s in response to the launch of <i>X-Factor</i>, specifically Bob Layton having Cyclops walk out on Madelyne. That "completely destroyed" Scott's character for him, and he set about dismantling Scott and Jean's relationship however the editors would let him, including retroactively. Hence, the retcons in the <i>Classic X-Men</i> back-up stories that Jean was as intensely attracted to Logan as he was to her and that she left the X-Men in issue #94 for fear of giving in and cheating on Scott. Hence, his intent that Rachel not be Scott's biological daughter, even of the Scott of an alternate timeline. Hence, his intent, had he not left the franchise in 1991, for Jean to leave Scott for Logan.<br /><br />Claremont was a die-hard Scott-Madelyne shipper, and I don't think he ever got over <i>X-Factor</i> #1.<br /><br /><i>So who did he intend [Askani] to be?</i><br /><br />I doubt he had any intentions for her. Claremont was just a scripter on that storyline. The plot and character introductions were from Jim Lee and Whilce Portacio. By that point, Lee and Bob Harras had already decided that Cable was baby Nathan back from the future, and this arc was set up for all that.<br /><br />-AaronAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-19060759914157974522017-04-24T14:27:33.612-05:002017-04-24T14:27:33.612-05:00Actually... what I think happened was that once Wa...Actually... what I think happened was that once Wanda around the "Darker than Scarlet" storyline magiced young Thomas and William away to become adult Stryfe and Cable for NM #86-87, she also was subconsciously aware that Magneto, with his surprising villanious turn would inevitably drift into a conflict with the heroes that he would not survive, and also magiced portions of Magneto's being into the twins for safekeeping (not Mephisto's, so). This is why one became the cackling commander of a half-bit mutant terrorist faction and the other one came to live on an orbital base when not tutoring Xavier's students when the previous headmaster became unavailable. <br /><br />It is of note that we see little Nathan the first time in UXM #201 in literally the next panel after Magneto promised to Xavier to take care of his students in #200. Also notice how in the last page of X-MEN #16 the villain Magneto's face is right next to Stryfe's helmeted head, and again in this issue in the two-page splash the spectre villain Magneto is hovering right above the Stryfe's face panel while above that the very UXM #1 -like spectre Cyclops et al are attacking towards Stryfe like they were Magneto on the cover of that issue (and again, of adjectiveless X-MEN #1).<br /><br />Even if Stryfe and Cable are supposed to be time-travellers, they are solidly in this time now and there is no reason why there should be time-flux energies unleashed at their demise. No, that happens because the anomaly caused by Wanda's retroactive magic unwounds now. The Stryfe-bit that was part of Magneto moves on to revive the dead Magneto from the wreck of Avalon, but Cable's insistence that he is his own man, or possibly all the iron fitted into his body, prevent the part of Magneto that is in him to do the same (and he possibly magically fuses into Nathan Christopher who is in the future somewhere, or has retroactively been a part of him since #201 because of Wanda's magic or whatever).<br /><br />This totally explains why we have seen the last of the majestic Magneto of Claremont's, and why he next returns as the cackling villain.Teemunoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-31905583286633043562017-04-24T08:08:13.376-05:002017-04-24T08:08:13.376-05:00Of course there is the alternative reading that yo...Of course there is the alternative reading that young Billy is half android because daddy was a synthetizoid, and the villanious young Tommy releases the mutant legacy plague because of the abandonment as a baby by the self-proclaimed leader of all mutantkind and his at-time evil redheaded daughter, and Scott and Jean are merely substitutes because Mags is presumed dead and I don't know what Scarlet Witch is up to at this time.<br /><br />Note how there is no Summers-Grey genetic material in the canister in the end, and how Polaris of all people was brought to witness it going down. ;)<br /><br />And then Mags will wake up from his post X-Men #3 slumber <i> coincidentally</i> just as a great magic storm breaks out to purge his grandchildren.Teemunoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-50777929645664012122017-04-24T07:48:05.014-05:002017-04-24T07:48:05.014-05:00Cable is so terminatoresquely metallic here in the...Cable is so terminatoresquely metallic here in the end, so it would appear like Cable was rather meant as a built android copy of Nathan with borrowed brainwaves inserted into him like Simon Williams' was into Vision, than a clone. The clone idea should feel pretty damn redundant at this point, considering that the previous crossover playing with the matters at hand was about Madelyne being a clone and reacting badly to it. Though, Stryfe being the real deal would fit to the thematics: also the clone can choose to be the good guy. Which would be welcome variation to how usually the 'clone=evil' has been such and easy out.<br /> Teemunoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-73798713756028362032017-04-23T15:20:23.407-05:002017-04-23T15:20:23.407-05:00I actually like how the questions of (1) whether C...<br>I actually like how the questions of <i>(1)</i> whether Cable or Stryfe is the original and <i>(2)</i> whether said original is/was truly Nathan Summers aren’t explicitly answered, the latter precisely because it’s so strongly implied without being confirmed. Maybe there’s actually something to be said for last-minute editorial mandates overruling creators’ endings on the X-Titles? For me this last chapter was the most engaging of the bunch by a fairly wide margin (once again marred by Eliopoulos’ appallingly injudicious usage of outlined display lettering within dialogue balloons). Which may be due in large part to how the cast of heroes here is pulled tight to almost exclusively longtime, core X-Men characters — there’s just Havok and Polaris from the new X-Factor team and, besides Cable himself, just Cannonball of the original New Mutants from X-Force — and how it boils down to yet another instance of Grey-Summers Family self-sacrifice on the moon.<br /><br>Blamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07342343767763035991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-26196701241046714362017-04-23T09:13:56.899-05:002017-04-23T09:13:56.899-05:00Man, these reviews make me want to go back and re-...Man, these reviews make me want to go back and re-read the entire storyline again. I always dug the random issues I had as a kid, and it sounds like they still hold up. I love anything Apocalypse-related, which this storyline has tons of. And I love it for taking such one-dimensional goofy characters as Cable and Stryfe (As they were originally introduced) and actually fleshing them out and making them more than just a dude with guns and pouches and a megalomaniacal psycho. <br /><br />I started reading X-Men shortly after this crossover (Around issue 300), but I always seem to remember Cable explicitly being Cyclops' son. Doing some research, it looks like it wasn't truly revealed until Cable's solo series in 1994. I wonder if at the time people just put 2 and 2 together and said Cable was Cyclops' son and that was that. It also explains why, to my memory, Cable wasn't mentioned as being a Summers in his early appearances in the X-Men cartoon.<br /><br />I also have to say it was cool to have X-Men Gold/Blue starring in their own respective books, but it was really limiting. If, say, Cyclops showed up in Uncanny then he really just felt like a guest-star on his own team. It also prevented some unique team ups that we'd see in a few years, where characters would be grouped together based on powers and skills for certain missions rather than just having the Blue Team or Gold Team all go out because they're a team.Ian Millerhttp://ianjmiller.deviantart.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-84978238842007856492017-04-22T16:06:29.550-05:002017-04-22T16:06:29.550-05:00It's funny because after he reunited with X-Fo...It's funny because after he reunited with X-Force (X-Force #26), he was still treated like a cyborg ("I never knew he had so many mechanical parts.")Jon Dubyahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11783906806644566810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-59759577154609041522017-04-22T03:22:01.346-05:002017-04-22T03:22:01.346-05:00In #68, Askani's explanation to using word &qu...In #68, Askani's explanation to using word "kinsman" is: "We share the same world. My line, as yours, claims the heritage of "Homo sapiens". In that small sense, we are all family." This may obviously be a convenient lie/half-truth.<br /><br />A little bit earlier she questions herself: "If only our rescans of this era -- of this moment -- were more precise. Is this the path of history that leads to the Armageddon that condemns my future?" Teemunoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-30993399723562149532017-04-21T22:47:48.454-05:002017-04-21T22:47:48.454-05:00It WAS Cable 6-8 that establishes that Cable's...It WAS Cable 6-8 that establishes that Cable's bionic parts are a result of the technovirus. And it must have been a very last minute decision since Cable 5 hinges on Cable using a "plasma charge" from inside his arm and a computer in his arm.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-39646308802101254882017-04-21T21:24:59.124-05:002017-04-21T21:24:59.124-05:00Even with chapters coming out on a weekly basis, t...Even with chapters coming out on a weekly basis, this crossover was painfully tedious to follow when it was first released. That alone is the biggest indicator of its lack of substance. Tearing through all 12 issues in an afternoon lessens the impact of so much dead space and wheel-spinning, but it's still very much there. <br /><br />But, as I've said before, these recaps have reminded me that the creative teams weren't treating X-Cutioner's Song as a bold move in a new direction. Those stories came later; this crossover was really just cleaning up a half-baked mess left behind by people who abruptly flew the coop. In that respect, they did a pretty good job.<br /><br />Speaking of those who flew the coop... look, no one needs any new excuses to rip on Liefeld's crappy art. But if anyone wants a great example of how it really was Liefeld's artistic skills (or lack thereof) that were the problem, as opposed to his over-the-top style, take a look at that drawing of Cable in his spacesuit above. The armor is just as impractical, the accoutrements are just as silly, and the gun is just as ridiculous as anything Mr 501 Jeans ever drew... but Capullo almost makes it work simply by being an accomplished artist. The armor is nuts, but it's generally proportionate. The gadgets are dumb, but they look like real objects. The gun is ludicrously oversized, but Capullo gives it real heft and dimension. You can almost see Cable straining to hoist it into the frame. Bobnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-1761095948841388992017-04-21T21:09:43.170-05:002017-04-21T21:09:43.170-05:00On the subject of Askani, while she was later reve...On the subject of Askani, while she was later revealed to be named after a rebellion founded in the future by Rachel Grey, Chris Claremont stated over a decade ago on Comixfan that it was never his intention for Rachel to evolve into "Mother Askani".<br /><br />So let's look at the original details he provided:<br />In X-Factor #67, it is revealed that a time-travel mishap turned Askani into pure energy, and she's only going to live long enough to complete her mission of rescuing young Nathan Summers (known as "Lord Nathan" in her future) from Apocalypse and taking him to the future to cure him from the T-O virus.<br /><br />While she refers to young Nathan as "little brother", her additional reference to "our father" when talking to him would seem to rule her out as connected to Rachel since Uncanny X-Men Annual #14, also penned by Claremont, ruled out Scott as Rachel's father;) Might this instead suggest that Askani is a future child of Scott's with Jean, given she has psionic powers what with her psychic knife and Phoenix symbol at the centre of her forehead.<br /><br />However, she also refers to "The Chosen's family" instead of her own, implying she is not related.<br /><br />If you check closely, you'll recall she is also not red-haired like Jean or Rachel but more auburn.<br /><br />She also refers to Nathan's father being savaged by Apocalypse in her future's past, yet in our timeline Scott was savaged by Mister Sinister.<br /><br />She also uses phrases like "praise the light" and "merciful bright lady", terms known to be regularly used by Ororo, not Rachel.<br /><br />So who did he intend this character from this side-reality to be?Nathan Adlerhttp://fanfix.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-38249200507274421102017-04-21T16:55:59.538-05:002017-04-21T16:55:59.538-05:00I may be letting commenter Matt's disdain for ...I may be letting commenter Matt's disdain for it color my perception, but I feel like there's people out there who don't like Jae Lee's art either for being too Sienkiewicz-ian (because there are people, like Matt, who don't like Sienkiewicz's NEW MUTANTS-era style) and/or for being too pin-up-y (ie it's all static shots with little movement panel-to-panel). <br /><br />Personally, I like it, both for its Sienkiewicz influence, and for how dark & moody it often is, but I also can't deny that, at least in these three issues, it does lack somewhat in storytelling ability. Austin Gortonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14281239771248780430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-91751942564200766562017-04-21T16:53:51.926-05:002017-04-21T16:53:51.926-05:00The "Cable's part are a result of the TO ...The "Cable's part are a result of the TO virus" came later - possibly even in the story that established who was the clone and who was the original (CABLE #6-8), in part as justification for Cable being the original. <br /><br />Here, I think the idea is that Stryfe is the original and Cable the clone, who lived a harder life and got fitted out with bionic parts along the way. <br /><br />The whole "self-destruct Cable's arm" thing also doesn't really work if the arm is just metal because of the TO virus (which is true of all the other "bionic" things we've seen Cable's arm do, prior to the TO retcon). Austin Gortonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14281239771248780430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-7881748767412510292017-04-21T16:50:17.675-05:002017-04-21T16:50:17.675-05:00(Also, Cyclops having an adult son older than him ...(Also, Cyclops having an adult son older than him is just bizarre...)<br /><br />It is, but in that wonderful "only in comics!" kind of way. :) <br /><br />Of course, Rachel is probably not that much younger than Scott is early 20's vs late 20's.brandenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18098413670016263499noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-4841347438835917812017-04-21T16:45:24.947-05:002017-04-21T16:45:24.947-05:00also, I've never heard anyone having problems ...also, I've never heard anyone having problems with Jae Lee's art. I've always been under the impression he was a relatively respected artist, if not a bit quirky for mainstream stuff- a bit like Mike Mignola.brandenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18098413670016263499noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-84219013253834874492017-04-21T16:37:19.557-05:002017-04-21T16:37:19.557-05:00When was it established that Cable's robot par...When was it established that Cable's robot parts are actually TO virus? Assuming it was before this, how could Cable be anything but the real McCoy (pun not intended)? He still has the TO virus, while Stryfe as a clone wouldn't have any manifestations of that disease.brandenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18098413670016263499noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-33044593824276600652017-04-21T15:59:17.087-05:002017-04-21T15:59:17.087-05:00I didn't necessarily need anyone to tie a big ...<i> I didn't necessarily need anyone to tie a big red bow on it by saying so.</i><br /><br />Nor did I, but it apparently torqued a lot of people off, because I still see it brought up occasionally. <br /><br /><i>I've felt, pretty much ever since I first read these issues, that this should've been it for Cable. </i><br /><br />Yeah. I mean, I love Cable, because he represents a very specific time in comics (both for comics and for me), but this really would have made for a great ending to the character. <br /><br />(And ditto Bishop at the end of "Onslaught"). <br /><br /><i>Asking honestly -- did anybody ever do much of note with Cable for the remainder of the decade?</i><br /><br />The standout run of his solo series from Joe Casey and Ladronn (mostly) is pretty good, though it's one of those "generally good" runs, and not good specifically because it's about/featuring Cable. Like, they're well-crafted stories that happen to star Cable, rather than being good stories because of how they use Cable. <br /><br />Beyond that. he played a fairly big role in "The Twelve", but I have issues with that story. The CABLE/DEADPOOL team-up book is pretty great (probably my favorite use of Deadpool), but that's partially due to some of the meta stuff, and partially due to the fact that it was one of the few books at the time that seemed willing to acknowledge/use past events/continuity. <br /><br />And of course, he played a pretty big role in Messiah Complex/raising & protecting Hope/Second Coming, but that importance is somewhat negated by the fact that the whole Hope plotline just kind of fizzled out. <br /><br />So I guess I'm both confirming & refuting your point.<br /><br /><i>(Also, Cyclops having an adult son older than him is just bizarre...)</i><br /><br />It is, but in that wonderful "only in comics!" kind of way. :) Austin Gortonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14281239771248780430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-50287277018964296862017-04-21T15:43:09.564-05:002017-04-21T15:43:09.564-05:00But for whatever reason, in this case, I think a p...<i>But for whatever reason, in this case, I think a permanent death would have served the character and the story far, far better.</i><br /><br />And his mother*, but it is what it is. I always considered Nate Grey the X-Man to be a version of Cable, the little that I ever got to read him, so it's not over by a longshot as far as Marvel is concerned.<br /><br />* You know what I mean.Teemunoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-19071833005342052712017-04-21T15:12:49.332-05:002017-04-21T15:12:49.332-05:00I never really considered that questions weren'...I never really considered that questions weren't answered by this crossover. Sure, nobody outright confirms anything, but my takeway after reading this final chapter was that Stryfe was quite obviously Nathan, and Cable was a clone of him. I didn't necessarily need anyone to tie a big red bow on it by saying so.<br /><br />As I said before, this was the event that got me reading X-Men comics regularly, so for any failings it may have had, it certainly did something right for this 13/14 year-old. I would continue to read UNCANNY in the immediate aftermath until #300, then I would drop it but pick up X-MEN with #20, and eventually I would get back on board with UNCANNY as well circa "Phalanx Covenant" and continue to read both all through high school and most of college, until around 2001.<br /><br />I've felt, pretty much ever since I first read these issues, that this should've been it for Cable. He really, honestly should've died here. His story was done, the revelations made. And he just never appealed to me as he apparently did to so many others of my generation, so I had no particular attachment to him as anything other than fuel for Cyclops's angst, which is something he would've provided far better in death than in life. And this is coming from someone who generally favors the "illusion of change" in comics! But for whatever reason, in this case, I think a permanent death would have served the character and the story far, far better.<br /><br />(I feel the same way about Bishop circa "Onslaught", though it's an opinion I dind't reach until years later -- he probably should've died there after fulfilling his story purpose, especially in light of the character assassination he'd suffer in the subsequent decade -- and Bishop is one of my favorite X-Men!)<br /><br />Asking honestly -- did anybody ever do much of note with Cable for the remainder of the decade? I'm sure he had good stories, but did he ever have as high a profile and as large a role in the universe after "X-Cutioner's Song"? I don't think so, though it's possible I'm wrong since I never read CABLE or X-FORCE. But following this event, he always just felt like a secondary/background character to me, which reinforced my opinion that he should've died here.<br /><br />(Also, Cyclops having an adult son older than him is just bizarre...)Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14580725636327122073noreply@blogger.com