tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post4627424960044827413..comments2024-03-28T10:18:00.370-05:00Comments on Gentlemen of Leisure: X-amining X-Force #3Austin Gortonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14281239771248780430noreply@blogger.comBlogger39125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-73892925729663468802016-04-24T13:20:20.235-05:002016-04-24T13:20:20.235-05:00Fair enough. I may well be being too hard on the ...Fair enough. I may well be being too hard on the guy. Sorry, Fabian! (Though we can agree to disagree as far as the writing quality on X-Force post-Liefeld. I only read up through X-Cutioner's song ... but I did hate all the non-PAD chapters of that crossover, so ....)Jasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13298753675007196538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-79073535702165538492016-04-13T06:27:44.435-05:002016-04-13T06:27:44.435-05:00Well okay, I wish to retract my initial statement:...Well okay, I wish to retract my initial statement: upon looking up the earliest A-N, A-D issues, I note in #96 Wolverine lets go in Kierrok commenting on his anger management issues, and that's of course a context where his general showing from therewith on needs to be put and thus it's not a retcon. <br /><br />There certainly are death threats thrown left and right by him, but as they don't really ever actualise, a modern reader can't but chuckle a bit when Cyclops spouts "I've just about had it with your "mad killer" act, pal!" in #106 upon such an instance. So when a 90's extreme-kewl goes on to make someone shish-kebab on-panel, he/she is in fact quite out-wolverining Wolverine.<br /><br />Unless you want to factor in the 15 years' worth of change in the editorial take on what the characters are actually allowed to do. I think the new kids took Pierce out intentionally so he can't just cyborg up all the intended dead victims of their 90's superheroes.Teemunoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-32214831997917016392016-04-12T23:34:34.877-05:002016-04-12T23:34:34.877-05:00Well, factually in the end it didn't amount to...Well, factually in the end it didn't amount to much more than post-relaunch on-panel lip service (in your named gents' work too, mind you) that nowadays reads like it likely was editorially mandated but otherwise ignored. But if you read it for its face value then and without the benefit of hindsight you could be forgiven for thinking that you'll now be in for all-new all-old Logan from now on.<br /><br />Not that there hasn't been a Logan discrepancy going on for some time, what with Claremont and Deathbird commenting on the full-of-vitality Lee-Wolverine being a but shade on his last legs compared to the past.<br /><br />But honestly, reading the earliest All-New, All-Different now, Wolverine's initial savageness reads to an extent like a retcon in the first place. Young leprechaun-talking hotshot and suspected animal-evoluteé got his ferality visibly amped later on in Claremont/Miller LS and that one Brood issue (and by the famous Shooter mandate for the Kitty vs. N'Garai). There have been glimpses mayhap of being a bit feral, but Feral he wasn't.Teemunoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-22908429361940704222016-04-12T18:51:25.549-05:002016-04-12T18:51:25.549-05:00But did they roll back Wolverine's character d...But did they roll back Wolverine's character development? I thought Nicieza and Lobdell, and certainly Hama, kept him as the seasoned elders statesman Claremont into which Claremont had evolved him. Am I forgetting something? I know he eventually goes feral after losing his adamantium, but that's an intentional plot-point, not a regression for regression's sake (and even then, it doesn't take all that long to get him back to his established persona).Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14580725636327122073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-25095493426507245742016-04-12T15:22:29.050-05:002016-04-12T15:22:29.050-05:00I wonder if the 90's creators find it totes ch...<i>I wonder if the 90's creators find it totes cheating that nowadays you get to just put Wolverine on every team, and if someone wants to go and pick the early 80's one by a time machine for his team it too is kind of okay?</i><br /><br />Ha! I bet nowadays 90s creators (or 90s editors, or 90s sales guys) are just mad that they could have had Wolverine in ALL the books, instead of just keeping him "sheltered" in one or two team books, a solo series, and countless one-shots and guest appearances. Austin Gortonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14281239771248780430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-86644917814851892392016-04-12T14:41:58.330-05:002016-04-12T14:41:58.330-05:00What I was subtly trying to suggest there was that...What I was subtly trying to suggest there was that X-Force gets a Wolverine character, X-Factor gets a Wolverine character, <i>EVERYONE gets a Wolverine character, and hey kids, guess who is going to be it for the X-Men!</i> (evenifitmeansrollingback tenyearsworthofsound characterdevelopment).<br /><br />Well okay I was venting really. I wonder if the 90's creators find it totes cheating that nowadays you get to just put Wolverine on every team, and if someone wants to go and pick the early 80's one by a time machine for his team it too is kind of okay?Teemunoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-16255882399162672182016-04-12T13:24:43.436-05:002016-04-12T13:24:43.436-05:00Like Matt, I don't consider Nicieza a hack, an...Like Matt, I don't consider Nicieza a hack, and I do think X-FORCE improves quite a bit once Liefeld is gone from both pencilling and plotting, in part because Nicieza seems to focus more on characterization while embracing the book's connection to New Mutants, bringing back Sunspot and Rictor (and eventually Dani) and wrapping up the Upstarts plot by via the old New Mutants' connections to the New Warriors by way of the Hellions - which is probably why I credit continuity-type stuff, especially as it pertains to the New Mutants, in these early issues to Nicieza as opposed to Liefeld. Liefeld seems very dismissive of the series' past, while Nicieza eventually shows, if not a specific love for the New Mutants, at least a desire to adhere to established continuity when possible, something that I like about his writing (he shows it also on THUNDERBOLTS and CABLE & DEADPOOL, the latter at a time when "continuity" was the dirtiest word you could utter at Marvel). <br /><br />It also of course helps that Nicieza gets to work with Greg Capullo regularly after Liefeld. <br /><br />All that said, I probably AM giving Nicieza too much credit for the good and Liefeld too much blame for the bad - something I cop to in the post. As wwk5d said, the "three days later" line could have been specified by Liefeld. Then again, it could have been Nicieza as well, and/or he could have chosen to change it. Austin Gortonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14281239771248780430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-31005806241810486352016-04-12T13:13:55.802-05:002016-04-12T13:13:55.802-05:00Good call, Blam! I don't tend to think of Wolv...Good call, Blam! I don't tend to think of Wolverine in that category of character, but he definitely is. Austin Gortonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14281239771248780430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-24711896818498675802016-04-12T13:13:15.624-05:002016-04-12T13:13:15.624-05:00No, obviously, at this point in time, Wolverine ha...No, obviously, at this point in time, Wolverine had evolved past his initial role as the angry outsider who was danger to his own team as much as their enemies, but that's still, archetypally, a Wolverine-role. Austin Gortonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14281239771248780430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-86592190192891121722016-04-11T11:57:14.995-05:002016-04-11T11:57:14.995-05:00Interesting, I've never considered Nicieza a h...Interesting, I've never considered Nicieza a hack. I never really read X-FORCE, but I loved his X-MEN in the nineties. He was my preferred X-writer over Scott Lobdell (though I really have nothing against Lobdell either). Later on, Nicieza's THUNDERBOLTS was a must-read for me every month, and I loved CABLE AND DEADPOOL.<br /><br />I do believe his stories get a little overly convoluted for the sake of convolution sometimes (thinking of Revanche, and later on, the "Wellspring" storyline in NEW THUNDERBOLTS), but in general I like most of the stuff I've read from him.Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14580725636327122073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-6883711252117156322016-04-11T00:04:38.884-05:002016-04-11T00:04:38.884-05:00"Well, who said it was day three?"
I..."Well, who said it was day three?"<br /><br />I'm guessing Liefeld in his plot outline to Nicieza?<br /><br />In any case, yes the writing does improve quite a bit after Liefeld leaves. I'd say Niceiza's best work on the title happens post-Fatal Attractions. Unfortunately, he doesn't have the best artists working with him by that point. wwk5dnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-26787756634026665392016-04-10T17:48:50.280-05:002016-04-10T17:48:50.280-05:00People are giving Nicieza a lot of credit in these...People are giving Nicieza a lot of credit in these comments. :) I never really saw these issues as the noble Nicieza doing god's work with his scripting and trying to cover up the sins of the Great Satan Liefeld. To me, it's just a pair of hacks doing hackwork. It's not as if Nicieza's scripts for the Liefeld-less X-Factor 69 and Uncanny 280 were brilliant, nor do the scripts improve (at least not dramatically) when Liefeld departs X-Force. <br /><br />Do they? Maybe I'm being too harsh. I just don't see how all the flaws can be laid at Rob's feet. "Why did X-Force wait until day three of the hostage situation to get involved?" Well, who said it was day three? Nicieza did, in the dialogue that he alone scripted. Right? Couldn't Nicieza have just said it was "Hour 17" instead of Day Three, and thereby sidestepped that flaw entirely?Jasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13298753675007196538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-68183964194204957302016-04-10T12:15:26.339-05:002016-04-10T12:15:26.339-05:00Don’t forget Wolverine, either, introduced when X-...<br>Don’t forget Wolverine, either, introduced when <i>X-Men</i> wasn’t even publishing new stories — although plans were already foot for the revival with an international team and he was created with that in mind.<br /><br>Blamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07342343767763035991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-57761932168551164012016-04-09T16:55:03.339-05:002016-04-09T16:55:03.339-05:00To comment on Matt's original point, it is mas...To comment on Matt's original point, it <i>is</i> massively beautiful that Siryn gets this gig now with her having only the premiering story, Fallen Angels and a part in Muir Island Saga under her belt so far. It's especially fine that neither Black Tom Cassidy has been up to nothing too much since the SPIDER-WOMAN appearance, and now that he does it's Siryn who pops up to foil his plans. She's actually up to pretty much her first actual superheroics here.<br /><br />It's also kind of awesome that of all possible characters the one Marvel Universe gets to have as double is Banshee*.<br /><br />*Yes, Banshee.Teemunoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-48019321394790301452016-04-09T14:45:42.471-05:002016-04-09T14:45:42.471-05:00Except of course that Wolverine at this point isn&...Except of course that Wolverine at this point <i>isn't</i> the team loose cannon anymore but rather the team heart, soul & adamantium backbone who sets out to put the scattered team back together. Cue to editorial correction in three, two, one...Teemunoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-55339316673367151352016-04-09T12:47:22.773-05:002016-04-09T12:47:22.773-05:00The rest of the Avengers were in the city, I belie...The rest of the Avengers were in the city, I believe. The Beast was just on monitor duty.<br /><br />There was an Iceman miniseries, but it came out in 1984, long after the DPS. wwk5dnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-23386824829217232612016-04-09T12:23:45.480-05:002016-04-09T12:23:45.480-05:00You'd think someone growing up in a society wh...<i>You'd think someone growing up in a society where each successive dictator is know by their sequel number would have a better grasp at counting, but ok, we'll go with it.</i><br /><br />I guess you could say that Shatterstar knows how to count in his language, but is working on counting Earth numbers and why am I even bothering to try and rationalize this? <br /><br /><i>Also, Dr. Doom didn't show up and shed any tears.</i><br /><br />Hahaha! Don't even get me started on that. <br /><br /><i>even though, as you say, we haven't seen anything yet from this group to suggest they are that EXTREME! Except for Feral, maybe.</i><br /><br />Yeah, and at this point, Feral still falls into the Wolverine category of being that one loose canon with questionable ethics that the rest of the team is never entirely sure what they're going to do. <br /><br />Austin Gortonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14281239771248780430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-38877375695043422212016-04-09T12:17:48.093-05:002016-04-09T12:17:48.093-05:00@Ian: I don't think so - I believe whatever pr...@Ian: I don't think so - I believe whatever project it was that got Iceman held out of DPS, ultimately never came to be (which makes the whole situation even sadder). Austin Gortonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14281239771248780430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-88238323001518600002016-04-09T11:02:08.428-05:002016-04-09T11:02:08.428-05:00I seem to recall Beast was the only Avenger in New...I seem to recall Beast was the only Avenger in New York during the DPS, the rest of the team was off on a mission at the time, which is why he was available. Was Icemans's solo series out at that time?Ian Millerhttp://ianjmiller.deviantart.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-14583603776164662892016-04-09T09:46:22.696-05:002016-04-09T09:46:22.696-05:00Siryn told the cops to hold back, but for how long...<i>Siryn told the cops to hold back, but for how long? Were they waiting the whole 3 days just based on her word till she decided to get involved? And why would they even listen to her? </i><br /><br />Cos she said it kind of loudly. EXTREEEEME!Teemunoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-4686123865781480902016-04-09T07:41:29.725-05:002016-04-09T07:41:29.725-05:00"as she didn't get taken by Peter David f..."as she didn't get taken by Peter David for X-Factor"<br /><br />Well, not this decade, anyway ;) Still, I liked her addition to X-factor. Even if, as with most characters, nothing really gets done with her till after Liefeld leaves.<br /><br />"Shatterstar is able to count now."<br /><br />You'd think someone growing up in a society where each successive dictator is know by their sequel number would have a better grasp at counting, but ok, we'll go with it.<br /><br />"featuring a a terrorist exploding part of the World Trade Center, takes on an entirely different and unintentional resonance now, post-9/11, and it's definitely not something we'd see presented this casually"<br /><br />Also, Dr. Doom didn't show up and shed any tears.<br /><br />"Cable even specifically says X-Force is there to do what the Avengers are unwilling to do. I guess neither is willing to address hostage situations sooner rather than later?"<br /><br />Well, to be fair, X-force waited till the third day. Those sissy Avengers would have waited till the fifth day.<br /><br />"Given the greater-than-usual media coverage of their exploits, Cable orders the team to not kill anyone, which is a perfectly viable reason for not doing so, except they haven't really done that at all that we've seen, so it seems a moot point."<br /><br />Cable has peculiar rules about killing, doesn't he? You can kill in self-defense, not for sport, and only if their are no TV cameras watching. <br /><br />The dialogue tries to sell how EXTREME X-force is, even Domino makes a comment about how hard it would be for this group to 1) limit killing and 2) limit collateral damage even though, as you say, we haven't seen anything yet from this group to suggest they are that EXTREME! Except for Feral, maybe.<br /><br />Well, the issue overall...ugh. The art is a mess, and ugly and inconsistent as ever. In addition to that horrible pic of Siryn that Jeff pointed out, the non-cover picture of Spiderman that is posted is just as horrible (is his right thigh protruding from his stomach? Wha?).<br /><br />And the story, well, Nicieza does his best to cover up many of the shortcomings, but even that doesn't always work. Siryn told the cops to hold back, but for how long? Were they waiting the whole 3 days just based on her word till she decided to get involved? And why would they even listen to her? <br /><br />And as Teebore points out...what was Black Tom and Juggernaut's plan with Jankos? The people were hold hostage in order to stop Jankos's company being bought out, by...holding everyone hostage? What? Poor Nicieza. There is only so much damage control he can do.wwk5dnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-79658829844995843482016-04-08T16:29:41.226-05:002016-04-08T16:29:41.226-05:00@wwk5d: I think when she joins the team after the...@wwk5d: <i> I think when she joins the team after the Mutant Massacre, it was his own choice, no?</i><br /><br />I believe so, yes Austin Gortonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14281239771248780430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-70978520387851408642016-04-08T16:29:19.848-05:002016-04-08T16:29:19.848-05:00@Ian: Wolverine's solo series also side-steppe...@Ian: <i>Wolverine's solo series also side-stepped this issue by specifically making each story fit into continuity between X-Men storylines, making it perfectly believable that he could be in the Australian Outback in X-Men while in Madripoor in his own book the same month, since they don't necessarily take place at exactly the same time. </i><br /><br />Though they're already getting sloppy about that around this time - you *can* fit the issues of his series in and around issues of the X-Men titles, but it's getting increasingly harder to do so, compared to the early days of his series and the Outback Era. <br /><br />@wwk5d: <i>But the Beast was an Avenger at the time he appeared in the Dark Phoenix Saga...and unless I'm mistaken, Iceman wasn't appearing in another team book at this time.</i><br /><br />He wasn't, but I believe someone had "claimed" Iceman for a miniseries around the time of DPS, so Claremont & Byrne couldn't use him. I think it was just a case of that writer not wanting to have to worry about it and declining to let them use Iceman, and editorial backed up, saying he dibs at the time. Whereas the AVENGERS writer (Michelinie?) didn't mind them using Beast. Or something like that. Austin Gortonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14281239771248780430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-60791206256682771312016-04-08T15:39:41.686-05:002016-04-08T15:39:41.686-05:00"I was always disappointed that Iceman wasn&#..."I was always disappointed that Iceman wasn't a part of the Dark Phoenix Saga, as that would've been a true reunion of the original team"<br /><br />But the Beast was an Avenger at the time he appeared in the Dark Phoenix Saga...and unless I'm mistaken, Iceman wasn't appearing in another team book at this time. Unless it was the Champions, except Angel was in that too and appeared in DPS. wwk5dnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-6849923396788919952016-04-08T13:28:42.957-05:002016-04-08T13:28:42.957-05:00Well, CC was forced to include Dazzler as a guest ...Well, CC was forced to include Dazzler as a guest star during the Dark Phoenix Saga (and it was during the first third, not the middle). I think when she joins the team after the Mutant Massacre, it was his own choice, no? wwk5dnoreply@blogger.com