tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post1131021071958219953..comments2024-03-28T10:18:00.370-05:00Comments on Gentlemen of Leisure: X-amining Secret Wars #1-12Austin Gortonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14281239771248780430noreply@blogger.comBlogger24125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-88854235649566785212013-01-12T09:33:51.935-06:002013-01-12T09:33:51.935-06:00@Matt: I've liked some of Zeck's sequentia...<br>@Matt: <i>I've liked some of Zeck's sequential work, but what really made me a huge fan were his</i> G.I. Joe <i>covers. Please look at those and then try to tell me you're not a fan. It's impossible.</i><br /><br />Sorry; I do not think that word means what you think it means. 8^) I have zero nostalgia for Marvel's Joe series and ditto for that era of the figures. I'm a '70s kid, early '80s at most, and the early-to-mid '80s is when I finally got discriminating about my comics — at the same time that DC actually switched places with Marvel, to a large extent and after a long time, in terms of which was telling the more mature stories and which felt more like kid stuff. I'll give props (no pun intended) that Zeck knew how to draw hands holding guns, but I don't like his faces, his figures are merely adequate, and the color on all but a couple of those covers is hideous to me in the most pejorative sense of "comic book". I mean no disrespect; let's just agree to disagree.<br /><br>Blamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07342343767763035991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-64031033233600084242013-01-09T14:16:35.426-06:002013-01-09T14:16:35.426-06:00@Blam: I really do remember Secret Wars being comp...@Blam: <i>I really do remember </i>Secret Wars<i> being compared more to </i>Crisis.<br /><br />Yeah, I definitely have always heard <i>Secret Wars</i> compared to <i>Crisis</i>. It was just interesting to look at the on sale dates and realize they never shared the shelves, and how in everything except impact (both long and short term) <i>Secret Wars</i> actually had a lot in common with <i>Super Powers</i>. <br /><br /><i>I suspect that the toy line and the co-opt of Super Friends was more popular than the comics Super Powers themselves.</i><br /><br />That toy line (along wit the <i>Super Hero Dictionary</i>) was pretty much my introduction to the DC Universe. <br /><br /><i>I think that at least a couple are now accessible, though, so I'll get on that.</i><br /><br />No worries. Anything you find is always appreciated, and if you find nothing, we'll survive. :) <br /><br />Assuming it's not just a lack of resources on my part, it seems we're in the midst of something of a fallow period for critical analysis/outside sources anyways (as you can tell from the lack of quotes), but that'll change once we get nearer to the return of Jean and the accompanying onslaught of remarks on that subject, followed by the launch of <i>X-Factor</i> and "Mutant Massacre". <br /><br /><i>[And I really mention this by way of example, not to toot my horn.]</i><br /><br />Or, in the parlance of kids these days, #humblebrag. :) <br /><br />@Matt: <i>I've liked some of Zeck's sequential work, but what really made me a huge fan were his </i>G.I. Joe<i> covers. </i><br /><br />Ah, yes, I'd completely forgotten about those. Definitely any affection I have for Zeck's work comes from those covers. <br /><br />I actually first saw a lot of those covers thanks to a GI Joe trading card set from around 1991 (back when I was still collecting cards). There was a subset about the Joe's missions, summarizing the comic book stories on the back, with a picture of the cover on the front. <br />Austin Gortonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14281239771248780430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-83752888824316477712013-01-08T12:19:06.579-06:002013-01-08T12:19:06.579-06:00Just a few items to add to the conversation:
1. I...Just a few items to add to the conversation:<br /><br />1. I agree that it would've made a lot more sense to "time-delay" all the regular Marvel titles so that the heroes didn't disappear until the month issue 11 or 12 went on sale. Somehow I never thought of this solution, though.<br /><br />2. I also never considered how odd it is that Professor X doesn't wear a mask with his costume. Weird. Maybe he keeps one in his back pocket for emergencies.<br /><br />3. I recently read the "Rocky Grimm: Space Ranger" storyline for the first time. I had always assumed I would enjoy it. I was wrong. It's rough going. Byrne writes the beginning and end, but all the middle part is just lackluster filler material from Mike Carlin and Bob Harras. Also, since it was being published concurrently with <i>Secret Wars</i>, there are several misconceptions about Battleworld presented, which don't quite fit with what we learn in the mini-series.<br /><br />4. I've liked some of Zeck's sequential work, but what really made me a huge fan were his <a href="http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/12/04/snark-blocker-mike-zecks-gi-joe-covers/" rel="nofollow"><i>G.I. Joe</i> covers</a>. Please look at those and then try to tell me you're not a fan. It's impossible.Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14580725636327122073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-58757437486754856322013-01-07T23:45:01.820-06:002013-01-07T23:45:01.820-06:00I should also add that what I said Shooter said ab...<br>I should also add that what I said <i>Shooter</i> said about getting the Marvel writers on board was, like the stuff about outmaneuvering DC, based on what I read in the fan press or heard talked about at local cons at the time. All sorts of stories may have come out since then, based on what else I've seen discussed on the Internet (here included). I was 13-14-15 then, from <i>Secret Wars</i> through <i>Crisis</i>, and still mostly took people at their word as quoted — be it creators and editors interviewed or journalists (air quotes possibly needed in some respects) asking or giving opinions. I heard a <i>lot</i> more, much of it off the record, once I joined the ranks of those journalists, but if the real story (or stories) behind certain old news didn't get dredged up then it just sat waiting to be uncovered at another time. Kurt Busiek pitching to John Byrne via Roger Stern, more or less, how Jean Grey could return is fairly common knowledge today, I think, but when Byrne mentioned it to me in 2000 for <i>Comicology</i> and I asked Kurt about it in turn there were plenty of industry folks who told me that they'd never heard that fascinating tidbit before. [And I really mention this by way of example, not to toot my horn.]<br /><br>Blamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07342343767763035991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-50714697978352227352013-01-07T23:33:15.913-06:002013-01-07T23:33:15.913-06:00@Teebore: In terms on sale dates, Secret Wars ende...<br>@Teebore: <i>In terms on sale dates, </i>Secret Wars<i> ended a month before </i>Crisis<i> #1 went on sale, so the later followed the former.</i><br /><br />Despite what I said about <i>Super Powers</i>, I really do remember <i>Secret Wars</i> being compared more to <i>Crisis</i>. Jack Kirby plotted and did covers for the first mini, then drew the second, with Carmine Infantino penciling the third, but to most kids they were out of style by then. I suspect that the toy line and the co-opt of <i>Super Friends</i> was more popular than the comics <i>Super Powers</i> themselves. <br /><br />And <i>like</i> I said, I remember the scuttlebutt about both <i>Secret Wars</i> and <i>OHOTMU</i> being that Marvel had got wind of <i>Crisis</i> and <i>Who's Who</i>, rushing out their own mega-crossover and handbook first to make DC look like the copycat. How that jibes with the <i>Secret Wars</i> toy line, which I don't remember seeing on the shelves until well after the mini had launched, I don't know; I didn't hear about Mattel or Marvel's marketing dept. being the genesis of <i>Secret Wars</i> until much later.<br /><br />@Teebore: <i>Obviously, I've never read that series, but for some reason, I always thought [</i>The Thing<i>] spun out of </i>Secret Wars. <br /><br />Which reminds me that you young(er) 'uns didn't know that the heroes returned to Earth in their own titles the same month or the month after <i>Secret Wars</i> #1 appeared. (<i>The Amazing Spider-Man</i> #252 was on sale <i>a week later</i>.) I guess that makes sense in retrospect, as it's weird that all the changes were given away, but the move was intriguing — making the miniseries about the journey rather than the destination and probably a savvy marketing choice. DC's <i>52</i>, now that I think about it, did the same thing on a much larger scale more recently.<br /><br />@Teebore: <i>I should have made a bigger deal out of it in the review</i><br /><br />No, I think it came across, both in your text and in the panels you posted. I haven't read <i>Secret Wars</i> in years upon years now, and I certainly got the point.<br /><br />@Teebore: <i>Visibly palling around with the X-Men in costume should have blown his cover ages ago.</i><br /><br />Right? I'm aware that the guy has the power to cloud men's minds, as it were, but there's no reason to rely on that and chance not getting everybody or worrying about video and all that. Then again this is the same guy who was too stupid or too cheap to give Bobby a whole costume, let alone a mask, so that when he powered down (or was forcibly powered down) as Iceman he was basically in a belt, swim trunks, and galoshes. Bobby didn't catch on himself, either. I remember around the Champions days, when he thankfully did at least have a full-body costume, Spider-Man had to make him a domino mask out of webbing in an issue of <i>Marvel Team-Up</i>.<br /><br />I'm sorry to say, by the way, that I've moved boxes around a couple of times recently and I totally forgot to look for mags with relevant interviews. I think that at least a couple are now accessible, though, so I'll get on that.<br /><br>Blamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07342343767763035991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-81145803685037706102013-01-07T12:31:37.614-06:002013-01-07T12:31:37.614-06:00@Blam: His post-Wars stint as "Rocky Grimm, S...@Blam: <i>His post-Wars stint as "Rocky Grimm, Space Ranger" began in Thing #10. </i><br /><br />Good to know. Obviously, I've never read that series, but for some reason, I always thought it spun out of <i>Secret Wars</i>. <br /><br /><i>There's one voice for Rebel, one for Altruistic Hero, one for Streetwise Villain, etc. in the very worst of Silver/Bronze Age cliché.</i><br /><br />More than anything, this is what I noticed on my most recent read through, and what bothered me the most (I should have made a bigger deal out of it in the review). In addition to Wolverine, who, as you say, never really sounds right, Captain America's voice, in the beginning at least, really sounds wrong, which is especially odd, since I more or less enjoyed Shooter's <i>Avengers</i> work and his Cap there never stuck out like it does here.<br /><br />There's a line in issue #2 or #3 where Cap tells Mr. Fantastic he's a credit to his name or some much, and it just sounds <i>wrong</i>, especially for two characters who even at this point had teamed-up/hung out before. <br /><br /><i>The few people who don't know that your school is the X-Men's "secret" headquarters will be thrilled to discover that an internationally renowned genetics expert is the leader of a feared and hated group of costumed mutants.</i><br /><br />I'm kind of embarassed to admit that for all the times I've read this upcoming "Xavier in action" run of issues, that never occurred to me. But it is pretty ridiculous. Storm not wearing a mask, fine, whatever. But not only is Xavier the public face of the school, he's a world-renowned authority on mutation. Visibly palling around with the X-Men in costume should have blown his cover ages ago. <br /><br /><i>Yes, I made good on my promise to pay attention to the filenames.</i><br /><br />Good. I'm trying to sneak at least one or two humorous ones in each post. :)<br /><br /><i>Life has killed the dream he dreamed.</i><br /><br />Haha! <br /><br /><i>Well, </i>Contest of Champions<i> kinda got there first.</i> <br /><br />True, though <i>Contest of Champions</i> didn't function on quite the same scale, in terms of number of issues, impact on regular series, the toy tie-in, etc. <br /><br /><i>unless he wrote the thing well in advance and didn't want to do any revisions</i><br /><br />That was my other thought.Austin Gortonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14281239771248780430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-81715543960757828892013-01-07T12:31:27.615-06:002013-01-07T12:31:27.615-06:00@Chris: DC's Crisis (which I think was going o...@Chris: <i>DC's Crisis (which I think was going on at the same time?) made it look dated and quaint.</i><br /><br />In terms on sale dates, <i>Secret Wars</i> ended a month before <i>Crisis #1</i> went on sale, so the later followed the former. DC's <i>Super Powers</i>, as Blam suggested, is probably the more accurate analog to <i>Secret Wars</i>, for being on sale at roughly the same time, being a tie-in to a toy line, and featuring a mashup of big name characters fighting a collection of bad guys, but I've never read it so I have no idea how it compares in terms of quality. <br /><br />If forced to choose, I'd probably go with <i>Crisis</i> over <i>Secret Wars</i> despite my general favoring of Marvel over DC, but it's not an entirely fair comparison as the goals of each series were wildly different (beyond, you know, the general goal of "sell lots of comics"). <br /><br />@Blam: <i>I'm gonna be the Zeck hater here</i><br /><br />For what it's worth, I'm not exactly a Zeck lover, though I'm frankly not familiar enough with his work enough to really formulate an opinion. I just know I'm not a huge fan of his work in <i>Secret Wars</i>, and that I liked what little of his Cap work I've seen better (and that his Cap run is generally well regarded). <br /><br /><i>When #8 came out — even though (or maybe because) The Amazing Spider-Man #252, his first actual published appearance in the black costume, was several months gone</i><br /><br />I've never really thought of it before I read this, but it's kind of funny that everyone refers to <i>Secret Wars</i> #8 as the first appearance of the black costume even though it's not. It's the first chronological appearance of it, but from a collecting standpoint, nobody cares about that, yet for years and years <i>Secret Wars</i> #8 has been held up as the coveted first appearance, rather than ASM #252.<br /><br /><i>Does anyone know if #8 goes for much now (and if there's a difference between the covers with redder backgrounds as opposed to the orangey ones)?</i><br /><br />A quick scan of eBay (which is usually where I check comic values these days, on the rare occasions I do, simply because it shows what people are actually paying for things) shows a handful of ungraded, unslabbed copies receiving bids from around $10-$30, with slabbed copies up in the $100 range. <br /><br />Which seems consistent with the listings on a quick Google search of a few comic price guide sites.<br /><br />Austin Gortonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14281239771248780430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-84414367889542185212013-01-06T23:57:57.956-06:002013-01-06T23:57:57.956-06:00@Matt: I begged my mom to buy the series for me, a...<br>@Matt: <i>I begged my mom to buy the series for me, and then one Christmas morning I woke up to find all twelve issues under the tree.</i><br /><br />That is indeed totally great. During the Paul Smith run I was hot to get ahold of <i>X-Men</i> issues I'd missed, either from the Byrne days when I just couldn't buy everything off the spinner racks, or during Second Cockrum when I sorta dropped it. So I took the extraordinary step of putting them on my Christmas/Chanukah list, even though my parents pretty much never got me comics unless I was with them because they didn't know what I had; lo and behold, both my mom and my dad (separately, as they were divorced and not coordinating presents) got me a bunch of stuff, which was awesome except that it was awkward to return the duplicates — which in retrospect I should've held onto and sold off like 10 years later.<br /><br />@Matt: <i>Which was, if I recall correctly, designed by Rick Leonardi -- though the white parts were originally going to be red!<br />I love Spidey's black costume.</i><br /><br />First, I agree with your second point. Second, I concur with your first point; <i>Marvel Age</i>, I remember, showed Leonardi's sketches, still mostly black with red highlights where the blue or gray was, and I <i>think</i> the white eyes and spider insignia were red too. I like gray relief used sparingly the best, indicating that it's a truly black costume, but I hate the usual substitution of blue and much prefer red to that. I think that eagle-eyed Alex Ross used those designs as the springboard for a version of Spider-Girl or Venom in <i>Universe X</i>, black with red veins running throughout, but I don't feel like looking it all up.<br /><br />@Teebore: <i>It makes me think that maybe most of the status quo changes other than the black costume came from the individual writers, and not Shooter, so he just shoehorned them in at the absolute last minute since they weren't his ideas.</i><br /><br />Like I said above, Shooter did incorporate the series' individual writers' changes into the <i>Secret Wars</i> plan, but it's true that waiting until the end to implement them as part of his story was weird — unless he wrote the thing well in advance and didn't want to do any revisions. The changes showed up in other titles the very month that <i>Secret Wars</i> #1 hit, and even if Zeck started penciling with a cushion that pretty obviously evaporated, so it ain't like there wasn't time to finesse the middle of the miniseries.<br /><br>Blamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07342343767763035991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-51472779964304848812013-01-06T23:54:13.710-06:002013-01-06T23:54:13.710-06:00the Thing stayed behind on Battleword to launch hi...<br><i>the Thing stayed behind on Battleword to launch his own solo series</i><br /><br />Actually it had already launched, spun right out of <i>Marvel Two-in-One</i>. His post-<i>Wars</i> stint as "Rocky Grimm, Space Ranger" began in <i>Thing</i> #10. <br /><br />I'll go at this again soon, but <i>Ouch!</i> The dialogue in that roll-call panel is <i>horrible</i> — and the art don't make up for it none, neither.<br /><br /><i>In issue #1, Magneto is sorted in with the heroes, much to the consternation of everyone except the X-Men. Issue #12 reveals this was because the Beyonder sorted everyone based on their greatest desires, and Magneto's desires were more compatible with the noble desires of the heroes.</i><br /><br />Huh. I'd forgotten that.<br /><br /><i>Wolverine is openly hostile to Captain America, specifically angry that he isn't taking a more offensive approach to the conflict.</i><br /><br />Whereas this I have never, ever forgotten 'cause it's just wrong. "He's the <i>least</i> of us!" stuck with me from the moment I read it. Not only does it not sound like Wolverine (at least not since, oh, <i>X-Men</i> #98 at the latest) in terms of tone, it doesn't sound like him in terms of content. Just from the panels you've reproduced, a handful out of hundreds upon hundreds in the miniseries, it's clear that Shooter is tone-deaf to any nuance in character voices and is almost actively ham-fisted in terms of attitudes. There's one voice for Rebel, one for Altruistic Hero, one for Streetwise Villain, <i>etc.</i> in the very worst of Silver/Bronze Age <i>cliché</i>.<br /><br /><i>Professor X also makes clear his desire to continue to lead the X-Men in the field now that he can walk, something that doesn't sit well with Storm.</i><br /><br />I <i>looove</i> the costume, Prof. And remember: Don't wear a mask! The few people who don't know that your school is the X-Men's "secret" headquarters will be thrilled to discover that an internationally renowned genetics expert is the leader of a feared and hated group of costumed mutants.<br /><br />Tough Xavier is my new band name. Our new album, <i>More Skeevy</i>, drops in January. (Yes, I made good on my promise to pay attention to the filenames.)<br /><br /><i>Colossus spends most of issue #4 missing Kitty.</i><br /><br />Life has killed the dream he dreamed.<br /><br /><i>Issue #11 reveals that Colossus' feeling for Zsaji are a side effect of her healing powers, something that Colossus never learns.</i><br /><br />Wolverine knows this because any time his own mutant healing factor kicks in he falls totally in love with himself.<br /><br /><i>The other heroes generally distrust the X-Men throughout the entire series</i><br /><br />Oh well.... At least the Avengers and the X-Men can get this conflict out of their system now rather than fight each other repeatedly down the road.<br /><br /><i>I have a great deal of affinity for issue #4, in which the Hulk holds up a mountain range on his shoulders while Mr. Fantastic struggles to devise a way to free the heroes</i><br /><br />I did like that, and it helped that Layton was drawing. As you've said it's not that the whole thing was trash; it had some interesting beats and really was a milestone for both the company and its readers even if there were persistent rumors that Marvel rushed both a 12-issue event and a handbook series into production to beat DC after it got wind of DC scheduling <i>Crisis</i> and <i>Who's Who</i> for its 50th anniversary. Shooter was definitely stuck in an old-fashioned mode of scripting superhero comics, though.<br /><br /><i>and taking the concept of the Marvel Universe to another level for the first time</i><br /><br />Well, <i>Contest of Champions</i> kinda got there first.<br /><br>Blamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07342343767763035991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-75190161408160133622013-01-06T23:50:11.776-06:002013-01-06T23:50:11.776-06:00I thought I'd already posted this early on. So...<br>I thought I'd already posted this early on. Sorry!<br /><br />Kitty was in ads for <i>Secret Wars</i> that used a version of #1's cover — as I see Matt has pointed out in comments.<br /><br />I'm gonna be the Zeck hater here, it appears, in addition to the (or a) JRJr. hater. Zeck's work on <i>Captain America</i> was solid in foundation, but I didn't care much for his peculiarities of style: Why the long face, everybody? <i>Secret Wars</i> was borderline abysmal stuff, not just for the general sketchiness but those tics of his and the feet especially; man, did I hate his feet. I was thrilled when Bob Layton came aboard with #4 and disheartened when he left. Of course this was all the more frustrating on such a major project, especially when you compare it to DC's <i>Crisis</i> (although <i>Super Powers</i> is actually more apt).<br /><br />The fanboy fervor over <i>Secret Wars</i> was pretty high and I was not immune. Even though I'd never been as much of a Marvel geek as a DC one, despite having read both my whole life, and even though <i>Crisis on Infinite Earths</i> felt like a way bigger deal all around what with the destruction of the multiverse and continuity being rewritten, <i>Secret Wars</i> was hard to pass up both for its massive teaming of Marvel's biggest characters and the changes it wrought throughout the line. Later events almost always carried lip service from the creators and editors that <i>Secret Wars</i> not just talked but walked, for all its faults as a story on its own terms and perhaps as an imposition from on high to those shepherding the characters involved. Shooter dictated certain things but he really did go to writers and ask them to either dream up changes to the <i>status quo</i> or to hold back and/or move up ones that they were going to implement anyway so that they could be implemented as part of <i>Secret Wars</i> to everyone's benefit. Spider-Man's black costume, Thing staying behind and being replaced by She-Hulk in the Fantastic Four, and even Dr. Doom's supposed death were all genuinely huge deals at the time. <br /><br /><i>Secret Wars</i> came during my very brief speculation phase, so I bought a couple of copies of each issue. When #8 came out — even though (or maybe because) <i>The Amazing Spider-Man</i> #252, his first actual published appearance in the black costume, was several months gone — my local comics shop had a two-per-customer maximum on the issue; I had my sister and a friend of hers to each buy a couple for me as well. Does anyone know if #8 goes for much now (and if there's a difference between the covers with redder backgrounds as opposed to the orangey ones)?<br /><br>Blamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07342343767763035991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-62251448705053523872013-01-04T11:51:43.308-06:002013-01-04T11:51:43.308-06:00I read these as they were coming out. Months befo...I read these as they were coming out. Months before that great Neal Adams-y full page promo had my friends and I eagerly anticipating a full-on rock 'em sock 'em comic book throw down. I have to say the final product left a lot to be desired, my enthusiasm dropped after the first issue, still followed it for a year but by then it was just another limited series. <br />Read it recently and I can appreciate the bronze-ageness of it, but even then it seemed like a throwback. DC's Crisis (which I think was going on at the same time?) made it look dated and quaint.Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13066873171972229134noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-83083399963053969372013-01-02T18:06:09.830-06:002013-01-02T18:06:09.830-06:00@Mike: I didn't read Secret Wars at all until ...@Mike: <i>I didn't read Secret Wars at all until I was an adult. Consequently, I got through maybe two and a half issues before I put it down.</i><br /><br />The first time I read it, as an adult, the questions of "what happens next?" and "what's the big deal with this?" were enough to power me through it. This time through was much more of a forced slog, at least until the last couple issues when some of the more pseudo-philosophical stuff comes into play. <br /><br />But if I had to read about Colossus moping about Zsaji one more time while the fate of the galaxy hangs in the balance, I was going to punch something...Austin Gortonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14281239771248780430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-9054545375748096602013-01-02T18:00:42.766-06:002013-01-02T18:00:42.766-06:00@Matt (cont)I loved the period following Secret Wa...@Matt (cont)<i>I loved the period following Secret Wars for a few years where he would alternate between the two.</i><br /><br />Ditto. <br /><br /><i>Also, though many people these days like to call it the "Venom costume", it will always be the "black Spider-Man costume" to me.</i><br /><br />I tend to think of it as "the alien costume", mainly because my first exposure to it, even before Venom, was a trade paperback collecting the issues of ASM immediately following <i>Secret Wars</i> titled "The Saga of the Alien Costume" or something like that. <br /><br /><i>So it seems like the exclusion of Kitty was a last-minute decision.</i><br /><br />I wonder if it was because Claremont told Shooter he'd use <i>Secret Wars</i> as the means to split up Kitty and Colossus (or if Shooter told Claremont that's how they'd split up, then changed his plans to leave her behind to help facilitate it). I know prior to their split-up Shooter lobbied for it pretty strongly. <br /><br /><i>It's interesting to note that Rogue can't tear Spidey's web here. I'm pretty sure that within a few years' time, such a feat would be simple for her.</i> <br /><br />Indeed. Her strength is surprisingly dialed down around this time, relative to what it would become in the not-too-distant future. <br /><br /><i>Though I also like the bit at the end where Wolverine, Cap, and Magneto head back into Doombase to free the captive villains from certain death.</i><br /><br />I do as well. I probably should have highlighted it. <br /><br /><i>I like Xavier's costume. I wish it stuck around longer. And doesn't Rogue's outfit somehow turn orange when they arrive on Earth? It looks a lot better in green.</i><br /><br />I too like this look for Xavier and prefer Rogue's green version to the orange one in becomes in <i>Uncanny</i>.<br /><br /><i>Rhodey was just a guy who happened to be black.</i><br /><br />Exactly. <br /><br /><i>Also, how come no one has even a passing comment to the fact that this is so totally, obviously a different guy in the Iron Man armor.</i><br /><br />I can't remember, but at this point, did some of the heroes know he was a different guy? If I remember my <i>Iron Man</i> correctly, I think there was a period where Rhodey filled in and no one knew, and another period where he did and the Avengers, at least, knew he was a different guy (not to be confused with the time that Tony-as-Iron Man pretended to be someone other than Tony wearing the armor). But I can't remember if this falls during the first period or the second. <br /><br /><i> I don't like her hair in this series, by the way. It's a little too "butch" for a character who is supposed to be super-glamorous. </i><br /><br />Totally agreed. That's always bugged me too.Austin Gortonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14281239771248780430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-91690468850778571102013-01-02T18:00:28.843-06:002013-01-02T18:00:28.843-06:00@Mock!: t has been pointed out that nearly every s...@Mock!: <i>t has been pointed out that nearly every sentence ends in an exclamation point!</i><br /><br />What's sad is that even though I've read that legend before and, you know, the whole series again recently, I didn't even notice it until I was typing out the issue titles and thought "man, there are a ton of exclamation points in these". <br /><br />@Jeff: <i>Spider-Man pretty much always beats the X-Men whenever they fight. It's absurd, but as a fan of both, I kind of enjoy it.</i><br /><br />Yeah, I don't seriously get too worked up over. It's just that my X-Men fandom trumps by Spidey fandom, so I want to stick up for them. And, as Matt noted, it's not so much that he beats them as it is he evades them. <br /><br /><i> I begged my mom to buy the series for me, and then one Christmas morning I woke up to find all twelve issues under the tree.</i><br /><br />That's pretty awesome. There were a few Christmases when I first started reading comics when my grandma would go out and buy stuff for me, so I'd have a handful of random issues under the tree. <br /><br /><i> One thing I've always found odd is that Shooter (and the readers) knew about all the status quo changes the series was going to end with, yet for some reason he held off on implementing practically all of them other than Spider-Man's costume until the very last minute.</i><br /><br />That's always seemed odd to me too, especially since the issues "back" from Secret Wars usually made a pretty big deal out of the changes. Even the <i>X-Men</i> issue makes the whole dragon business seem like a bigger deal than it actually was. <br /><br />It makes me think that maybe most of the status quo changes other than the black costume came from the individual writers, and not Shooter, so he just shoehorned them in at the absolute last minute since they weren't his ideas. <br /><br /><i>I recall when I was younger, I assumed that Marvel had simply stopped publishing everything except Secret Wars for a year while it ran its course</i><br /><br />I thought that too as a kid, and then when I realized how unlikely that would be, I assumed that the series must have been published before the issues where everyone disappeared, with the issues featuring everyone returning synching up with the end of the series (sort of the opposite of how it really happened). <br /><br /><i>One thing I've always thought was a missed chance though, was for team books to take advantage of the missing characters.</i><br /><br />Agreed again. <br /><br /><i>Arthur Adams contributed an art assist to issue #12</i><br /><br />Ah, that makes sense. That page stood out to me, but I just assumed it was the work of one of the inkers not blending as well. Now that it's been pointed out, it seems more obviously-Adams. <br /><br />Austin Gortonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14281239771248780430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-72051699369589093192012-12-29T15:54:29.364-06:002012-12-29T15:54:29.364-06:00I didn't read Secret Wars at all until I was a...I didn't read Secret Wars at all until I was an adult. Consequently, I got through maybe two and a half issues before I put it down. Shooter's writing and seeing a good artist like Zeck draw in such a pedestrian style made it difficult to get even that far. I'm sure I would have liked it as a kid, but I fall squarely into the "dislike" category.<br /><br />@Matt:<br /><br />That's awesome that your mom picked up the entire series for you! My mom is a wonderful person, but stepping into a comic book store would have been a step too far.<br /><br />- Mike LoughlinAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-122125906767242912012-12-28T15:30:02.367-06:002012-12-28T15:30:02.367-06:00MOCK! - I've read all that about the exclamati...MOCK! - I've read all that about the exclamation points before. I never really noticed until it was brought to my attention, though. It just seems logical to me that comic book characters would use lots of exclamation points in comics!<br /><br />(I use lots of exclamation points myself in e-mails, texts, etc. I think I picked it up from comics.)Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14580725636327122073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-33299798657790511992012-12-28T15:27:44.766-06:002012-12-28T15:27:44.766-06:00PART THREE IN A 3-PART COMMENT
"Issue #3 fea...<b>PART THREE IN A 3-PART COMMENT</b><br /><br />"<b>Issue #3 features the X-Men facing off against Spider-Man, and losing</b>."<br /><br />As we've noted before, he doesn't beat them so much as he holds his own and manages to get away. He takes out Professor X first -- with a bitch slap -- then basically just jumps around so much that the X-Men can't draw a bead on him. Storm remarks that if they were outside she could finish the fight in a hurry, but indoors and in tight quarters, she can't do much.<br /><br />It's interesting to note that Rogue can't tear Spidey's web here. I'm pretty sure that within a few years' time, such a feat would be simple for her.<br /><br />My favorite part of the fight, though, is Spidey's casual dismissal of Wolverine. While idly backhanding him, he jokes that Wolverine's "pig stickers" may scare the guys at the local bar, but they're a joke to him. Try to imagine that exchange even a couple years later!!<br /><br />I love Wolverine's line at the end of the skirmish: "He made us look like fools -- like amateurs!" Yup. And he joked about it the entire time!<br /><br />"<b>Throughout the series, Wolverine is openly hostile to Captain America</b>..."<br /><br />This does go against later depictions of the characters together, but it feels more appropriate for Wolverine; at least the Wolverine Shooter is writing. He seems to have decided this series features the Wolverine of the mid-70's, the belligerent dick who no one liked. It's kind of a throwback. But as a fan of that Wolverine, I like it.<br /><br />Though I also like the bit at the end where Wolverine, Cap, and Magneto head back into Doombase to free the captive villains from certain death. In that moment, they seem settle their differences.<br /><br />"<b>As the X-Men prepare to return home in issue #12, they create new costumes, including the new looks for Professor X and Rogue</b>."<br /><br />I like Xavier's costume. I wish it stuck around longer. And doesn't Rogue's outfit somehow turn orange when they arrive on Earth? It looks a lot better in green.<br /><br />"<b>Iron Man references Julius Irving in issue #2</b>."<br /><br />One of the most painful things about this series is how Shooter writes Rhodey like a Blaxploitation character (though I do love when he refers to Captain Marvel as "talent"). That was always Luke Cage's shtick. Rhodey was just a guy who happened to be black.<br /><br />Also, how come no one has even a passing comment to the fact that this is so totally, obviously a different guy in the Iron Man armor. Even if there's voice modulation going on to make him sound like he always did, he's just not <i>saying</i> things that Iron Man had ever said before! But (in the panel you posted a bit later), the Torch just shrugs off his "Thank God he ain't black" comment, and calls him "Shellhead" as if this is business as usual.<br /><br />"<b>Magneto attempts to seduce Wasp in issue #3, but she only plays along until she can escape.</b>"<br /><br />Jan certainly has a thing for older men, doesn't she? Wasn't she like 18 when she was dating accomplished exobiologist Hank Pym? I don't like her hair in this series, by the way. It's a little too "butch" for a character who is supposed to be super-glamorous.Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14580725636327122073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-27640775876313933122012-12-28T15:27:25.489-06:002012-12-28T15:27:25.489-06:00PART TWO IN A 3-PART COMMENT
"Mattel ... acq...<b>PART TWO IN A 3-PART COMMENT</b><br /><br />"<b>Mattel ... acquired the license to create Marvel toys, and asked Marvel to launch a big event comic to support the line</b>..."<br /><br />And then for some reason they proceeded to make several figures of characters who didn't appear in <i>Secret Wars</i>. The initial series was all characters from the series, like Cap, Spidey, Wolverine, Doom, Magneto, etc. But soon we received <i>Secret Wars</i> figures of Hobgoblin, Baron Zemo, Daredevil and the Falcon, none of whom appears in the series at all (though Zemo and Hobby were the main antagonists in their enemies' respective comics at the time).<br /><br />"<i><b>Secret Wars</b></i> remains most notable for introducing Spider-Man's black costume..."<br /><br />Which was, if I recall correctly, designed by Rick Leonardi -- though the white parts were originally going to be red!<br /><br />I love Spidey's black costume. I don't care much for the symbiote version, but I liked when the Black Cat made him a cloth replica. I would never want it to permanently replace the traditional red-and-blues, but I loved the period follwing <i>Secret Wars</i> for a few years where he would alternate between the two. Red during the day and black at night, or something. I wish that was still the case. Marvel likes to dust off the black costume every so often for special events and occasions, but why not just make it a regular part of the rotation?<br /><br />Also, though many people these days like to call it the "Venom costume", it will always be the "black Spider-Man costume" to me.<br /><br />"...<b>with art by Captain America penciler Mike Zeck</b>."<br /><br />In Zeck's original pencil art for issue number one, Kitty is present with the rest of the heroes. She also appeared on the promotional poster for the series (which I have hanging in my den), but was removed when the poster became the cover for the first issue. So it seems like the exclusion of Kitty was a last-minute decision. I don't know if it was Shooter's choice, or if Claremont somehow forced him to keep her out of the series because of his <i>New Mutants</i> storyline.<br /><br />I love Mike Zeck, but I agree with you that his work here, due in all likelihood to Shooter providing the layouts, is somewhat unispired. But even sub-part Zeck is quite impressive to me.Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14580725636327122073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-77675642679677386662012-12-28T15:26:55.446-06:002012-12-28T15:26:55.446-06:00PART ONE IN A 3-PART COMMENT
As I've said bef...<b>PART ONE IN A 3-PART COMMENT</b><br /><br />As I've said before, <i>Secret Wars</i> is a bit of a guilty pleasure for me. It's one of the few comic series I have triple-dipped on (the others being Claremont/Byrne X-Men and Stern/Romita Spider-Man). I had the toys as a kid, before I knew the comic existed. I discovered the comic a few years after its publication, when I was probably about 8 or 9 years old. I begged my mom to buy the series for me, and then one Christmas morning I woke up to find all twelve issues under the tree. She had gone to the local comic shop and purchased the back issues! A few years later I purchased the trade paperback version when I was in middle school, and then more recently, I bought the Omnibus.<br /><br />So I guess you could say that <i>Secret Wars</i> made a pretty big impression on me. I knew all about Spider-Man and the Hulk, and a bit about the F.F. and Captain America, but this series was my introduction to most of the Avengers, to Iron Man, and especially to the X-Men -- not to mention most of the non-Spidey villains! To this day, I have trouble with a non-insane Klaw and with an Ultron who can think for himself, because that's not how I encountered them here. On the other hand, I knew that smart Hulk was an abberation, as I was already aware of his usual status quo from the TV series and cartoons.<br /><br />In retrospect, knowing the backstory involving Mattel, it's a pretty shameless cash-grab. But it's also pretty good cross-promotion, and -- in my opinion at least -- a decent story. It certainly could've been better, and it does feel like it's treading water in the middle, but it's still a fun read. One thing I've always found odd is that Shooter (and the readers) knew about all the status quo changes the series was going to end with, yet for some reason he held off on implementing practically all of them other than Spider-Man's costume until the very last minute. Seems like a bit of a wasted opportunity there.<br /><br />I recall when I was younger, I assumed that Marvel had simply stopped publishing everything except <i>Secret Wars</i> for a year while it ran its course, to avoid spoiling the surprises in store. Obviously that would be suicide for a publisher, but as a kid I didn't know any better. I'm not sure when I figured out that it actually ran alongside all of the changes in the regular titles. Probably around middle school.<br /><br />One thing I've always thought was a missed chance though, was for team books to take advantage of the missing characters. If many of the Avengers are missing but some still remain on Earth, why not do a few issues about the reserve Avengers coping with their teammates' disappearance while filling in for them? You wouldn't need to do that storyline for a full year, but what's the point in bringing everyone back the very next month when there's a wealth of other Avengers characters to draw upon for a while? Even the X-Men could've gotten away with this for a while, with the likes of Havok, Polaris, and Banshee (not to mention Moira and Madelyne) trying to deal with the disappearance of the regular team.<br /><br />But it's probably because, from what I've gathered, most writers resented Shooter "kidnapping" their characters to begin with, so they wanted to get past the whole thing as soon as possible.<br /><br />Random Note #1: As a kid, I was infatuated with the heroes' headquarters building and it really miffed me that it was destroyed so early in the series. That big dome, that waterfall... it just looked <i>so</i> awesome!! I wanted an OHOTMU entry with a full floor plan!<br /><br />Random Note #2: Arthur Adams contributed an art assist to issue #12, <a href="http://marvel1980s.blogspot.com/2012/07/secret-wars-12-and-assist-by-art-adams.html" rel="nofollow">as detailed here</a>. Even as a kid, I could tell there was something different about that second page, but it wasn't till years later that I learned what.Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14580725636327122073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-91550408860057587532012-12-28T00:57:34.592-06:002012-12-28T00:57:34.592-06:00Spider-Man pretty much always beats the X-Men when...Spider-Man pretty much always beats the X-Men whenever they fight. It's absurd, but as a fan of both, I kind of enjoy it.Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14447265712189987074noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-50150480197644424122012-12-27T19:26:49.091-06:002012-12-27T19:26:49.091-06:00http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2007/02/1...http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2007/02/15/comic-book-urban-legends-revealed-90/<br /><br /><br /><br />Yeah!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-21213147113369288672012-12-27T19:25:26.238-06:002012-12-27T19:25:26.238-06:00Der!
Stupid iPad! Der!<br /><br /><br />Stupid iPad! MOCK!https://www.blogger.com/profile/02854497329647596811noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-37680385395732812352012-12-27T19:22:00.287-06:002012-12-27T19:22:00.287-06:00And here is the link! It is the second legend!
En...And here is the link! It is the second legend!<br /><br />Enjoy!<br /><br />MOCK!https://www.blogger.com/profile/02854497329647596811noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7266470995513648978.post-23133833887381735742012-12-27T19:17:29.854-06:002012-12-27T19:17:29.854-06:00I should find the link, but it has been pointed ou...I should find the link, but it has been pointed out that nearly every sentence ends in an exclamation point! When I read the panels now, I always imagine the characters super excited or yelling at each other! It certainly fits the bombastic nature of the tie-in!MOCK!https://www.blogger.com/profile/02854497329647596811noreply@blogger.com